WHO IS GOD'S TRUE ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT?

[Colt]

You have it back the front. There was no Church before the Word of God. That came later. Gods Church are simply all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says.

Holy men wrote about the events in the Bible long after they happened. There was NO scripture before Exodus and frankly 1000 years later.

 

[3rdAngel]

Holy men wrote about the events in the Bible long after they happened. There was NO scripture before Exodus and frankly 1000 years later.

True but that does not change anything I have been sharing with you here from the scriptures. Before the recorded written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God.

 

[Bthoth]

True but that does not change anything I have been sharing with you here from the scriptures. Before the recorded written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God.

Pharaoh was not god except to the believers of the time.

Moses lived in the house of pharaoh. Speaking to god, was as easy as coming home for dinner conversations.

Which other writer of bible spoke to god and was claimed to get torah from the mt of egypt (sinai)?

Remember be honest before belief (keep the rules).

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So, you choose the reliability of the Pilate crucified Jesus part of the Gospels……but dismiss the part about religious leaders taking issue with Jesus’ apparent blasphemy and bringing Jesus to the governors attention ??

That seems like selective editing of the Gospels you already discredited?

The Torah, which I assume you have no reliability issues with, includes the death penalty for various offenses………but it’s just inconceivable that religious men in Jesus’ day could have had him put to death????

I'm saying you have to judge the veracity of the gospel tales via the historical facts that we do have. The fact that Pilate was relieved of office due to the brutality in which he put down the Samaritan uprising tells us that it is a LIE to say he was intimidated by the Jewish leaders.

 

[Monty]

That’s not what the trial narratives say. Pilate didn’t find Jesus guilty, the Romans took no offense at the spiritual teachings of Jesus concerning a spiritual kingdom. It was the Sanhedrin that found Jesus worthy of death but needed their Roman occupiers to carry out the death penalty because they were forbidden. That was the whole reason for going to Pilate.

It ain't necessarily so, the things that you're liable to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.
The Romans, however, mocked him as "The King of the Jews" when they executed him, with no reference to a spiritual kingdom.
If he had actually done something against Jewish law, then they could have just quietly slit his throat or stabbed him, or stoned him to death.

 

[Colt]

I'm saying you have to judge the veracity of the gospel tales via the historical facts that we do have. The fact that Pilate was relieved of office due to the brutality in which he put down the Samaritan uprising tells us that it is a LIE to say he was intimidated by the Jewish leaders.

This influenced my thinking about how and why Pilate might have been in debt to the demands of the Jewish leaders.

BTW, I don't see Jesus as being on trial before Pilate, I see Pilate as being on trial before Jesus!

PONTIUS PILATE​

185:1.1 If Pontius Pilate had not been a reasonably good governor of the minor provinces, Tiberius would hardly have suffered him to remain as procurator of Judea for ten years. Although he was a fairly good administrator, he was a moral coward. He was not a big enough man to comprehend the nature of his task as governor of the Jews. He failed to grasp the fact that these Hebrews had a real religion, a faith for which they were willing to die, and that millions upon millions of them, scattered here and there throughout the empire, looked to Jerusalem as the shrine of their faith and held the Sanhedrin in respect as the highest tribunal on earth.

185:1.2 Pilate did not love the Jews, and this deep-seated hatred early began to manifest itself. Of all the Roman provinces, none was more difficult to govern than Judea. Pilate never really understood the problems involved in the management of the Jews and, therefore, very early in his experience as governor, made a series of almost fatal and well-nigh suicidal blunders. And it was these blunders that gave the Jews such power over him. When they wanted to influence his decisions, all they had to do was to threaten an uprising, and Pilate would speedily capitulate. And this apparent vacillation, or lack of moral courage, of the procurator was chiefly due to the memory of a number of controversies he had had with the Jews and because in each instance they had worsted him. The Jews knew that Pilate was afraid of them, that he feared for his position before Tiberius, and they employed this knowledge to the great disadvantage of the governor on numerous occasions.

185:1.3 Pilate’s disfavor with the Jews came about as a result of a number of unfortunate encounters. First, he failed to take seriously their deep-seated prejudice against all images as symbols of idol worship. Therefore he permitted his soldiers to enter Jerusalem without removing the images of Caesar from their banners, as had been the practice of the Roman soldiers under his predecessor. A large deputation of Jews waited upon Pilate for five days, imploring him to have these images removed from the military standards. He flatly refused to grant their petition and threatened them with instant death. Pilate, himself being a skeptic, did not understand that men of strong religious feelings will not hesitate to die for their religious convictions; and therefore was he dismayed when these Jews drew themselves up defiantly before his palace, bowed their faces to the ground, and sent word that they were ready to die. Pilate then realized that he had made a threat which he was unwilling to carry out. He surrendered, ordered the images removed from the standards of his soldiers in Jerusalem, and found himself from that day on to a large extent subject to the whims of the Jewish leaders, who had in this way discovered his weakness in making threats which he feared to execute.

185:1.4 Pilate subsequently determined to regain this lost prestige and accordingly had the shields of the emperor, such as were commonly used in Caesar worship, put up on the walls of Herod’s palace in Jerusalem. When the Jews protested, he was adamant. When he refused to listen to their protests, they promptly appealed to Rome and the emperor as promptly ordered the offending shields removed. And then was Pilate held in even lower esteem than before.

185:1.5 Another thing which brought him into great disfavor with the Jews was that he dared to take money from the temple treasury to pay for the construction of a new aqueduct to provide increased water supply for the millions of visitors to Jerusalem at the times of the great religious feasts. The Jews held that only the Sanhedrin could disburse the temple funds, and they never ceased to inveigh against Pilate for this presumptuous ruling. No less than a score of riots and much bloodshed resulted from this decision. The last of these serious outbreaks had to do with the slaughter of a large company of Galileans even as they worshiped at the altar.

185:1.6 It is significant that, while this vacillating Roman ruler sacrificed Jesus to his fear of the Jews and to safeguard his personal position, he finally was deposed as a result of the needless slaughter of Samaritans in connection with the pretensions of a false Messiah who led troops to Mount Gerizim, where he claimed the temple vessels were buried; and fierce riots broke out when he failed to reveal the hiding place of the sacred vessels, as he had promised. As a result of this episode, the legatus of Syria ordered Pilate to Rome. Tiberius died while Pilate was on the way to Rome, and he was not reappointed as procurator of Judea. He never fully recovered from the regretful condemnation of having consented to the crucifixion of Jesus. Finding no favor in the eyes of the new emperor, he retired to the province of Lausanne, where he subsequently committed suicide.

185:1.7 Claudia Procula, Pilate’s wife, had heard much of Jesus through the word of her maid-in-waiting, who was a Phoenician believer in the gospel of the kingdom. After the death of Pilate, Claudia became prominently identified with the spread of the good news.

185:1.8 And all this explains much that transpired on this tragic Friday forenoon. It is easy to understand why the Jews presumed to dictate to Pilate—to get him up at six o’clock to try Jesus—and also why they did not hesitate to threaten to charge him with treason before the emperor if he dared to refuse their demands for Jesus’ death.

185:1.9 A worthy Roman governor who had not become disadvantageously involved with the rulers of the Jews would never have permitted these bloodthirsty religious fanatics to bring about the death of a man whom he himself had declared to be innocent of their false charges and without fault. Rome made a great blunder, a far-reaching error in earthly affairs, when she sent the second-rate Pilate to govern Palestine. Tiberius had better have sent to the Jews the best provincial administrator in the empire." UB 1955

 

[Colt]

True but that does not change anything I have been sharing with you here from the scriptures. Before the recorded written Word of God there was the spoken Word of God.

If Satan was allowed to mislead the whole world, then holy men writing self-serving scripture books and then claiming God wrote them, is child's play!

 

[Colt]

It ain't necessarily so, the things that you're liable to read in the bible, it ain't necessarily so.
The Romans, however, mocked him as "The King of the Jews" when they executed him, with no reference to a spiritual kingdom.
If he had actually done something against Jewish law, then they could have just quietly slit his throat or stabbed him, or stoned him to death.

In the history of Judaism, the prophets were not always well received by the religious leaders of their day.

 

[3rdAngel]

If Satan was allowed to mislead the whole world, then holy men writing self-serving scripture books and then claiming God wrote them, is child's play!

Yes you can choose to believe Gods Word or not believe that is between you and God who according to the scriptures, we will all answer to God come judgement day. Until that day you will always have that niggling voice in the back of your head as our short lives come to a close. "What if I am wrong?" Imagine then standing before God knowing you had the chance to believe Gods Word and receive everlasting life but instead turned your back on Gods great love, mercy and grace revealed through His Word, choosing instead not to believe God and His Word but instead choosing a life of unbelief and sin instead? Then it finally hits home that you are about to receive the judgements of God. Unlike you, I have no doubt in what I believe and I know God and He knows me. According to the scriptures there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day. At that time according to the scriptures it will be too late for the many that were called that decided not to be of the few that are Gods chosen (Matthew 7:13-23; John 3:36; Hebrews 10:26-31).

Take Care.

 

[Colt]

Yes you can choose to believe Gods Word or not believe that is between you and God who according to the scriptures, we will all answer to God come judgement day. Until that day you will always have that niggling voice in the back of your head as our short lives come to a close. "What if I am wrong?" Imagine then standing before God knowing you had the chance to believe Gods Word and receive everlasting life but instead turned your back on Gods great love, mercy and grace revealed through His Word, choosing instead not to believe God and His Word but instead choosing a life of unbelief and sin instead? Then it finally hits home that you are about to receive the judgements of God. Unlike you, I have no doubt in what I believe and I know God and He knows me. According to the scriptures there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgement day. At that time according to the scriptures it will be too late for the many that were called that decided not to be of the few that are Gods chosen (Matthew 7:13-23; John 3:36; Hebrews 10:26-31).

Take Care.

I have a personal relationship with the living God which was the original, pre-cross Gospel of Jesus. I don't worship a dead fetish book. I'm already saved as opposed to dedication to belief in the theory of salvation in the future based on believing things that don't sound believable.

When you speak of a nagging voice "what if I'm wrong" that indicates that to you its a matter of believing the right theory, the right creed as opposed to having a personal relationship with the father.

When one is born again there is no nagging voice.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This influenced my thinking about how and why Pilate might have been in debt to the demands of the Jewish leaders.

BTW, I don't see Jesus as being on trial before Pilate, I see Pilate as being on trial before Jesus!

PONTIUS PILATE​

185:1.1 If Pontius Pilate had not been a reasonably good governor of the minor provinces, Tiberius would hardly have suffered him to remain as procurator of Judea for ten years. Although he was a fairly good administrator, he was a moral coward. He was not a big enough man to comprehend the nature of his task as governor of the Jews. He failed to grasp the fact that these Hebrews had a real religion, a faith for which they were willing to die, and that millions upon millions of them, scattered here and there throughout the empire, looked to Jerusalem as the shrine of their faith and held the Sanhedrin in respect as the highest tribunal on earth.

185:1.2 Pilate did not love the Jews, and this deep-seated hatred early began to manifest itself. Of all the Roman provinces, none was more difficult to govern than Judea. Pilate never really understood the problems involved in the management of the Jews and, therefore, very early in his experience as governor, made a series of almost fatal and well-nigh suicidal blunders. And it was these blunders that gave the Jews such power over him. When they wanted to influence his decisions, all they had to do was to threaten an uprising, and Pilate would speedily capitulate. And this apparent vacillation, or lack of moral courage, of the procurator was chiefly due to the memory of a number of controversies he had had with the Jews and because in each instance they had worsted him. The Jews knew that Pilate was afraid of them, that he feared for his position before Tiberius, and they employed this knowledge to the great disadvantage of the governor on numerous occasions.

185:1.3 Pilate’s disfavor with the Jews came about as a result of a number of unfortunate encounters. First, he failed to take seriously their deep-seated prejudice against all images as symbols of idol worship. Therefore he permitted his soldiers to enter Jerusalem without removing the images of Caesar from their banners, as had been the practice of the Roman soldiers under his predecessor. A large deputation of Jews waited upon Pilate for five days, imploring him to have these images removed from the military standards. He flatly refused to grant their petition and threatened them with instant death. Pilate, himself being a skeptic, did not understand that men of strong religious feelings will not hesitate to die for their religious convictions; and therefore was he dismayed when these Jews drew themselves up defiantly before his palace, bowed their faces to the ground, and sent word that they were ready to die. Pilate then realized that he had made a threat which he was unwilling to carry out. He surrendered, ordered the images removed from the standards of his soldiers in Jerusalem, and found himself from that day on to a large extent subject to the whims of the Jewish leaders, who had in this way discovered his weakness in making threats which he feared to execute.

185:1.4 Pilate subsequently determined to regain this lost prestige and accordingly had the shields of the emperor, such as were commonly used in Caesar worship, put up on the walls of Herod’s palace in Jerusalem. When the Jews protested, he was adamant. When he refused to listen to their protests, they promptly appealed to Rome and the emperor as promptly ordered the offending shields removed. And then was Pilate held in even lower esteem than before.

185:1.5 Another thing which brought him into great disfavor with the Jews was that he dared to take money from the temple treasury to pay for the construction of a new aqueduct to provide increased water supply for the millions of visitors to Jerusalem at the times of the great religious feasts. The Jews held that only the Sanhedrin could disburse the temple funds, and they never ceased to inveigh against Pilate for this presumptuous ruling. No less than a score of riots and much bloodshed resulted from this decision. The last of these serious outbreaks had to do with the slaughter of a large company of Galileans even as they worshiped at the altar.

185:1.6 It is significant that, while this vacillating Roman ruler sacrificed Jesus to his fear of the Jews and to safeguard his personal position, he finally was deposed as a result of the needless slaughter of Samaritans in connection with the pretensions of a false Messiah who led troops to Mount Gerizim, where he claimed the temple vessels were buried; and fierce riots broke out when he failed to reveal the hiding place of the sacred vessels, as he had promised. As a result of this episode, the legatus of Syria ordered Pilate to Rome. Tiberius died while Pilate was on the way to Rome, and he was not reappointed as procurator of Judea. He never fully recovered from the regretful condemnation of having consented to the crucifixion of Jesus. Finding no favor in the eyes of the new emperor, he retired to the province of Lausanne, where he subsequently committed suicide.

185:1.7 Claudia Procula, Pilate’s wife, had heard much of Jesus through the word of her maid-in-waiting, who was a Phoenician believer in the gospel of the kingdom. After the death of Pilate, Claudia became prominently identified with the spread of the good news.

185:1.8 And all this explains much that transpired on this tragic Friday forenoon. It is easy to understand why the Jews presumed to dictate to Pilate—to get him up at six o’clock to try Jesus—and also why they did not hesitate to threaten to charge him with treason before the emperor if he dared to refuse their demands for Jesus’ death.

185:1.9 A worthy Roman governor who had not become disadvantageously involved with the rulers of the Jews would never have permitted these bloodthirsty religious fanatics to bring about the death of a man whom he himself had declared to be innocent of their false charges and without fault. Rome made a great blunder, a far-reaching error in earthly affairs, when she sent the second-rate Pilate to govern Palestine. Tiberius had better have sent to the Jews the best provincial administrator in the empire." UB 1955

No offense, but the Urantia book is not a historical source on anything.

 

[Colt]

No offense, but the Urantia book is not a historical source on anything.

I realize that but I find it a compelling explanation of why Pilate might be in a difficult position. He had a boss and he had made mistakes governing Judea which is a matter of historic records.

 

[3rdAngel]

I have a personal relationship with the living God which was the original, pre-cross Gospel of Jesus. I don't worship a dead fetish book. I'm already saved as opposed to dedication to belief in the theory of salvation in the future based on believing things that don't sound believable. When you speak of a nagging voice "what if I'm wrong" that indicates that to you its a matter of believing the right theory, the right creed as opposed to having a personal relationship with the father. When one is born again there is no nagging voice.

According to the scriptures, Jesus says no one worships God if they follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead them to break the commandments of God and not believe and follow what Gods Word says (see Matthew 15:3-9) and again in John 3:36 Jesus says, 36, He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. According to these same scriptures again, we are saved by Gods grace that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and this faith comes by hearing and hearing by this same Word of God * Romans 10:17. Again according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-9 no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says (John 1:1-4; 14; John 3:16; 36). Its not about believing the right theory. Its about seeking to know the truth of Gods Word by being born and led by the Spirit of God (see John 3:3-7; John 7:17; John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 John 3:6-9) which is a part of Gods new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 given to all those who believe. We are told in the scriptures to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not in 2 Corinthians 13:5. There is a simple test to know if we know God or not know God 1 John 2:3-4. What do you think it means? Jesus says "By their fruits you shall know them." That is who is from God and who is not (Matthew 7:16-23). No one therefore can claim to have a personal relationship with God if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says.

Take Care.

 

[Monty]

In the history of Judaism, the prophets were not always well received by the religious leaders of their day.

Including Jesus' parents and his family who didn't believe that he was a prophet, and why he had nothing to do with them. (Matt 12:46-50 Matt 13:57 John 5:7).
And more recent prophets haven't been well received either such as Joe Smith, although Trump is still holding on, and Creflo Dollar etc are making plenty of spondooly and flying around in private jets with fancy ladies.

But he was still executed by the Romans as a potential threat, and why the Romans mocked him as "The King of the Jews".

 

[Monty]

According to the scriptures, Jesus says no one worships God if they follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead them to break the commandments of God and not believe and follow what Gods Word says (see Matthew 15:3-9) and again in John 3:36 Jesus says, 36, He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him. According to these same scriptures again, we are saved by Gods grace that we receive through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and this faith comes by hearing and hearing by this same Word of God * Romans 10:17. Again according to the scriptures in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-9 no one can claim to know God if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says (John 1:1-4; 14; John 3:16; 36). Its not about believing the right theory. Its about seeking to know the truth of Gods Word by being born and led by the Spirit of God (see John 3:3-7; John 7:17; John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 John 3:6-9) which is a part of Gods new covenant promise in Hebrews 8:10-12 given to all those who believe. We are told in the scriptures to examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith or not in 2 Corinthians 13:5. There is a simple test to know if we know God or not know God 1 John 2:3-4. What do you think it means? Jesus says "By their fruits you shall know them." That is who is from God and who is not (Matthew 7:16-23). No one therefore can claim to have a personal relationship with God if they do not believe and obey what Gods Word says.

Take care

The bible, however, says that unbelievers are saved anyway (1Tim 4:9-11), and you can always have an after-death baptism if you want to (1Cor 15:29).

 

[3rdAngel]

The bible, however, says that unbelievers are saved anyway (1Tim 4:9-11), and you can always have an after-death baptism if you want to (1Cor 15:29).

I think you are going to be disappointed. The bible does not each anywhere that unbelievers will be saved and neither does it teach that there is an after death baptism. According to the scriptures those in unbelief are the lost and those who receive Gods judgements for sin (see John 3:36; Romans 14:23; Hebrews 10:26-31). See also 1 John 2:3-4. I would runaway from whoever is teaching you those things. I believe those teachings are the doctrines of devils.

 

[Colt]

Including Jesus' parents and his family who didn't believe that he was a prophet, and why he had nothing to do with them. (Matt 12:46-50 Matt 13:57 John 5:7).
And more recent prophets haven't been well received either such as Joe Smith, although Trump is still holding on, and Creflo Dollar etc are making plenty of spondooly and flying around in private jets with fancy ladies.

But he was still executed by the Romans as a potential threat, and why the Romans mocked him as "The King of the Jews".

Pilate capitulated to the political power that the Jews had over him due to his previous missteps. He was a coward and hoped the crowds would set him free and spare Pilate having to put an innocent man to death.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

According to the scriptures, Jesus says no one worships God if they follow man-made teachings and traditions

That's not true at all. That is a Protestant teaching, and the Bible actually contradicts it. Authority is given by God to the Levites and judges to interpret the Law.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Pilate capitulated to the political power that the Jews had over him due to his previous missteps. He was a coward and hoped the crowds would set him free and spare Pilate having to put an innocent man to death.

The Jews had absolutely no power over Pilate. NONE.

We know from historical documents that Pilate was thoroughly unafraid to decimate any group that defied him.

 

[Colt]

The Jews had absolutely no power over Pilate. NONE.

We know from historical documents that Pilate was thoroughly unafraid to decimate any group that defied him.

We will just have to disagree on that. It wasn’t Roman’s that constantly harassed Jesus and tried him in the Sanhedrin. Jesus wasn’t a threat to Rome at any time.