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Who Or What Is Israel?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Based on religious opinion or perhaps just rabbid interpretation?
Based on history.

There are a long series of Jewish states in Canaan. Indeed, the Jews are the ONLY people to have established nation states in Canaan. We had the united kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, and Solomon. We had the northern kingdom of Israel which had Samaria as its capital. We had the southern king of Judah, which had Jerusalem as its Capital. Later, there was the kingdom of Judea. When Judea was destroyed by the Romans, most Jews went elsewhere, and for 2000 years continued to say "Next year in Jerusalem" each year at Passover. However, there was always a remnant of Jews that continued to live on our land in the territory of Palestine. During those 2000 years, no other nation state was formed -- the land was simply occupied by one empire after another, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Ottomans, and the British. Today we have returned to our homeland.
Because the fact is, the world is our homeland.
You apparently do not understand what the term homeland means. Is English your second language?
Because if it requires such inhumane acts to achieve,
1. no matter where Israel had been established, people would have been displaced.
2. the high number of deaths was largely due to Arabs from Jordan and Egypt moving to Israel as a strategy to prevent it from becoming a Jewish state, and then not leaving, followed by foreign Arab nations declaring war on Israel. Had these nations not declared war on Israel, people wouldn't have died.


NONE OF THIS has anything to do with the fact that Canaan is the homeland of the People of Israel. You apparently have difficulty with basic logical reasoning.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Based on history.

There are a long series of Jewish states in Canaan.
OK.... lots of people even now live in the levant
Indeed, the Jews are the ONLY people to have established nation states in Canaan.
Not true... Egypt maintain the region known as the New Kingdom. No such thing as an israel until UN res 181 but many people lived in the region for about 10,000 yrs plus.
We had the united kingdom of Israel under Saul, David, and Solomon.
Not that I can find except by the religious opinion and then people trying to use old stone tablets and then claiming that the tablets are suggesting the label means israel or hebrew or even like you, that "DAVID" means israel or solomon means israel etc..... Especially when the label per torah came from a story about jacob fighting an angel in a river.
We had the northern kingdom of Israel which had Samaria as its capital. We had the southern king of Judah, which had Jerusalem as its Capital.
So basically the confusion continue. Which capital is capital? The dance is constant.
Later, there was the kingdom of Judea.
Another kingdom, still not israel.
When Judea was destroyed by the Romans, most Jews went elsewhere, and for 2000 years continued to say "Next year in Jerusalem" each year at Passover.
Of course. Romans destroyed it, so now palestinians are being uprooted. Did you ever consider that the palesitnians are the original Jews?

and never left? but that the people just converted?
However, there was always a remnant of Jews that continued to live on our land in the territory of Palestine.
OK..... Just as I considered possible.
During those 2000 years, no other nation state was formed -- the land was simply occupied by one empire after another, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Ottomans, and the British. Today we have returned to our homeland.
'we'..... You have no idea but by religion, you keep that as your narrative.
You apparently do not understand what the term homeland means.
Sure I understand.......... but in your view, you are allowed to insult a person that does not accept your narrative.


Is English your second language?
There is that attempt to insult.



1. no matter where Israel had been established, people would have been displaced.
2. the high number of deaths was largely due to Arabs from Jordan and Egypt moving to Israel as a strategy to prevent it from becoming a Jewish state, and then not leaving, followed by foreign Arab nations declaring war on Israel. Had these nations not declared war on Israel, people wouldn't have died.

1.... sure, the palestinians are being uprooted because the existing people do not submit to your narrative of what is the correct religion, promised land, homeland (per religious opinion/authority)

2.... the arab per the semitic language means, nomads.... If your israel was uprooted via diaspora, they became NOMADS.


NONE OF THIS has anything to do with the fact that Canaan is the homeland of the People of Israel. You apparently have difficulty with basic logical reasoning.
I do not accept your narrative of events, history and rights to oppress and uproot people based on religious belief.

Yes, israel controls the levant by force, not god. I am aware of the apartheid dividing people based on a nasty arrogance of the dross.

If you knew the tanakh prophecy, you would know better than to partake as the dross and oppress people based on that idolatry for a land, (next year in jerusalem). Note that the scope of your system of belief is idolatry, not personal responsibility.

Huge difference of what is good and idolatry for a location.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Agreed. Can't use a stone tablet that is evidence, and make up an interpretation to fit a belief. That's corrupt and never leads to fact.
It's part of the history of the English church in relation to idolatry.

alfred10commandments.png


The first and second commandments of Exodus 20 are:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHWH thy Elah [am] jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:3-5
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
It's part of the history of the English church in relation to idolatry.
OK , am I supposed to debate your tangent?

Nothing you wrote there is about the tablet.

Yet I can play............... idolatry for a location is rude.

How many times has UN condemned Israel?


As of 2013, the State of Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions by the United Nations Human Rights Council (UNHRC). Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined.




Basically the majority on the earth have condemned israel for the decades of oppression, apartheid and illegal occupation.

You can't win, even with samson option (the suicide solution)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Another kingdom, still not israel.
The fact that you cannot acknowledge Judea as a Jewish kingdom that existed in Canaan tells me that you are simply too irrational a person to have a discussion with. So I'm moving on. You can have the last word if you wish. Be well.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
The fact that you cannot acknowledge Judea as a Jewish kingdom that existed in Canaan tells me that you are simply too irrational a person to have a discussion with.
Acknowledge? You are not asking me to acknowledge, you are expecting me to capitulate, that what israel is doing is a god given right.
As if Isreal has a right to apartheid and oppress millions.

There is no WHO, that is israel even if the religion has it manifested into brainwashing.



I am tired of your unmitigated bias. Israel is a state, not a people chosen by god.

The good by any god is by what the person does, not who their lineage is.


So I'm moving on. You can have the last word if you wish. Be well.
I am well and still fighting to defend Jews from people like you.

Kingdoms do not make a people. Talking about a history of a region of the world, the levant is not what makes a people Jewish.

The religion and the integrity of keeping the rules is what makes judaim better than most. Not a kingdom, not a king david, not even defending israel THE apartheid makes people jews.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Thanks for quoting bible to start



Does Genetics Only Determine Who Israel Is?
NO, the idea that a blood line is who/what israel is, is a long held form of bigotry. This cultural observance was taken from egypt, the land mass where judaism was born from (see mt sinai... was egypt then and still is now

Do you Beleive that there is a Spiritual Israel?
NO..... the spiritual side of judaism is keeping the rules, as a matter of choice. (bar-bat mitzvah is a choice to be a 'child of commandments)

Do you agree that Elohim/God has Ordained Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel?
NO..... the quest for what IS REAL is natural to all conscious life

What does it mean to have the Israeli Trait of Power With Elohim/God and With Men?
A religious belief..... the leadership of egypt back when there were pharaohs had the same ideology/belief system, that the power of god was there's by god (chosen ones).
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I'm Jewish by birth and an orthodox Jew by education.
I support the more Orthodox branch because they are more Committed to Elohim/God. The more Committed you are to Elohim/God the Weaker the Surrounding False Gods. This is provided that those calling themselves Orthodox are actually Orthodox and Sincere.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I wish they might not have added unnecessary things to the 'natural religion'. God/soul/prophets/sons/messengers are unnecessary.
What is there to practice? Live and let live. That is about all.
In Christendom they talk about Elohim/God, Spirit, Soul, Prophets, Son and Messengers while practising Natural Christian Religion.

How do you measure Growth in the your Religion? The aim of Religious Practice is to Grow into something Greater. Really every person on the planet is Worshipping a Elohim/God. Your Elohim/God is your Primary Motivation for Existence. And the Mystery is that there is only One Elohim/God Manifesting in different ways to different people.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Why should I listen to you? Are you a rabbi who spent years in school learning to be an expert in Jewish law?
I have a different perspective from you. I don't expect Jews to listen to Gentiles on matters of Jewish Law, although you can hear that I have a different perspective on what Israel Is.

Perspective on Israel that Elohim/God has shown me:
Israel is Defined and Maintained by Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel. Israel Does Not Exist Without Total Devotion to the Religion of the Elohim/God of Israel.

You might be able to Listen to Elohim/God on Tablet:

Merneptah Stele
391px-Merneptah_Steli_%28cropped%29.jpg


"...The princes are prostrate, saying ‘Peace!’
Not one raises his head among the Nine Bows.
Desolation is for Tjehenu;
Hatti is pacified;
Plundered is the Canaan with every evil;
Carried off is Asqaluni;
Seized upon is Gezer;
Yanoam is made non-existent;
Israel is laid waste—its seed is no more;
Kharru has become a widow because of Egypt.
All lands together are pacified.
Everyone who was restless has been bound."

 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have a different perspective from you. I don't expect Jews to listen to Gentiles on matters of Jewish Law, although you can hear that I have a different perspective on what Israel Is.
I honestly don't need for you to tell me what Israel is. The word has a number of different meanings, and I am familiar with all of them.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Oh, I thought we were talking about teachings that were incorrect, but now you want to bring up sinning, which is a different topic.

Jews sin, same as everyone else. I sin. You sin. We all sin. Some Jews are good. Some Jews are bad. Same as everyone else. Some Rabbis are good, some rabbis are bad, same as everyone else.

When you have a point that is significant, let me know.
Isaiah 59:2

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Salvation from Sin is what the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is All About.

Apart from a few hundred/thousand Elect, every person on the planet are Evil Children of the Devil/Satan. Sinners are Evil. Some people are more Evil than others. The Bad/Evil Priests and Teachers in Judaism are making proclamations from their Evil Heart leading their flock astray to Satan/Devil Worship. The same thing is happening in Christendom with the Evil/Bad Christian Priests/Pastors. This is Ordained by Elohim/God for Elohim's/God's Earthly Kingdom.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Isaiah 59:2

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



Salvation from Sin is what the Holy Scriptures/Bible from Genesis to Revelation is All About.

Apart from a few hundred/thousand Elect, every person on the planet are Evil Children of the Devil/Satan. Sinners are Evil. Some people are more Evil than others. The Bad/Evil Priests and Teachers in Judaism are making proclamations from their Evil Heart leading their flock astray to Satan/Devil Worship. The same thing is happening in Christendom with the Evil/Bad Christian Priests/Pastors. This is Ordained by Elohim/God for Elohim's/God's Earthly Kingdom.
Micah 7:19
He shall return and grant us compassion; He shall hide our iniquities, and You shall cast into the depths of the sea all their sins.

Psalm 103
10 He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor has He repaid us according to our iniquities.
11 For, as the height of the heavens over the earth, so great is His kindness toward those who fear Him.
12 As the distance of east from west, He distanced our transgressions from us.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
First of all, not everyone accepts the Bible as sacred text. I, for example, do not accept the New Testament. Your belief in the Bible is just that -- a religious belief based on faith and not evidence.

Second, Christians do not agree on which books are in the Bible. The shortest canon is that of Protestants. Catholics have a somewhat larger canon. Then come the Eastern Orthodox, whose OT contains the entire Septuagint. And then finally comes the Ethiopian church, whose Bible contains books not even in the Septuagint such as Enoch.
In Christendom the various denominations and groups only appear to be divided at the surface level. At the fundamental level all of them are the same. It's all Roman Catholicism. Really Protestants are Roman Catholic for example.







My apologies, I did not know you were Muslim.

Are there any other sacred texts you consider to be the word of God? The Vedas? The Talmud? The Tao Te Ching?

My second point in the earlier post was that the fact a text claims to be the word of God does not necessarily make it so. That point stands. To use the text to prove the text is a logical fallacy called circular reasoning.
Every Word written is the Word of Elohim/God. Elohim/God is Good and Evil. The Words of Elohim/God Inspire to do Good or to do Evil. Elohim/God is Creator of All Things and Is All Things. Elohim/God is Omni.

I Am Christian Gnostic and Not Muslim. Are you listening?


Omnipotence

Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power. Monotheistic religions generally attribute omnipotence only to the deity of their faith. In the monotheistic religious philosophy of Abrahamic religions, omnipotence is often listed as one of a deity's characteristics, along with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. The presence of all these properties in a single entity has given rise to considerable theological debate, prominently including the problem of evil, the question of why such a deity would permit the existence of evil. It is accepted in philosophy and science that omnipotence can never be effectively understood.









I'm not sure why you are changing the subject. Christian Gnosticism died out long ago. They believe for example that matter is bad and only spirit is good, and that a person is saved by having esoteric knowledge. Today, you can find miscellaneous people who agree with bits and pieces of Gnosticism, but the original movement is long gone. So... why did you change the subject?
It hasn't died out because there are a Few of us practising Christian Gnosticism. I Am Practising Christian Gnostic.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
It makes no difference. A Jew is a Jew. In fact, in Jewish law, it is unlawful to even ask if a person is a convert.
I'm not Under the Rulings of the teachings of your Judaic Priests/Teachers, therefore, Not Unlawful to me. On the other hand, if you can show that it is Unlawful in the Hebrew Bible to ask if a person is a convert than I will not ask again. The only Authority on matters of Law is the Law of Moses in the Hebrew Bible.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm not Under the Rulings of the teachings of your Judaic Priests/Teachers, therefore,
I never said you were.

You apparently have made up your own personal religion. If it brings you closer to God, and helps you to become a better person, then more power to you.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Thanks for quoting bible to start
Christian duty to spread the Word.








NO, the idea that a blood line is who/what israel is, is a long held form of bigotry. This cultural observance was taken from egypt, the land mass where judaism was born from (see mt sinai... was egypt then and still is now
Yes, it's Racism the teaching that Israel is Determined by Bloodline Without the requirement to practice the Law of the Elohim/God of Israel. And those that claim Israel by Bloodline Cry Racism all the time while being among the Greatest Proponents of Racism. Racism is Integral to Elohim's/God's Earthly Kingdom.


Curse of Ham

Early Judaism and Islam


"While Genesis 9 never says that Ham was black, he became associated with black skin, through folk etymology deriving his name from a similar, but actually unconnected, word meaning "dark" or "brown".[47] The next stage are certain fables according to ancient Jewish traditions. According to one legend preserved in the Babylonian Talmud, God cursed Ham because he broke a prohibition on sex aboard the ark and "was smitten in his skin";[48] according to another, Noah cursed him because he castrated his father.[49]

Although the Talmud only refers to Ham, the version brought in a midrash goes on further to say "Ham, that Cush came from him" in reference to the blackness,[50] that the curse did not apply to all of Ham but only to his eldest son Cush, who migrated to sub-Sahara Africa.[51] Thus, two distinct traditions existed, one explaining dark skin as the result of a curse on Ham, the other explaining slavery by the separate curse on Canaan...."








NO..... the spiritual side of judaism is keeping the rules, as a matter of choice. (bar-bat mitzvah is a choice to be a 'child of commandments)
Romans 7:14

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



Therefore, Keeping the Rules makes Israel Spiritual because the Rules are Spiritual. Spiritual Israel comes into Existence through Observing the Spiritual Law.









NO..... the quest for what IS REAL is natural to all conscious life
Therefore, from your perspective the highest form of Existence is Nature. This is the teaching of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.











A religious belief..... the leadership of egypt back when there were pharaohs had the same ideology/belief system, that the power of god was there's by god (chosen ones).
Elohim/God is Power. Elohim/God Wants his Totally Devoted Servants to be Powerful.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
How do you measure Growth in the your Religion? The aim of Religious Practice is to Grow into something Greater. Really every person on the planet is Worshipping a Elohim/God. Your Elohim/God is your Primary Motivation for Existence. And the Mystery is that there is only One Elohim/God Manifesting in different ways to different people.
Greater? Would you become Rostam or Arnold Schwarzenegger? In reality, you are already as big as you can be. There is nothing greater than you. The only thing is that ignorance (or prejudices) do not allow you to realize that.
Christian duty to spread the Word.
There has not been anything more perverse than to spread the word, whether Christian or Muslim. That has brought all the ills in the world.
 
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