Who Or What Is Israel?

[Elihoenai]

Do you still not understand that
1. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 actually gives that authority to interpret?
2. It is impossible for a community to follow the written Torah without interpretation?

I suspect that what you don't like here is simply the fact that the Rabbis interpreted things somewhat differently than YOU do, making YOURSELF the authority.

You are the one that is failing to understand. I'm in Total Agreement with the Torah. Elohim/God has given Authority to Interpret. People and Groups Interpret in Different Ways. I'm saying that from my perspective your Judaic Teachers Interpret the Torah in a Perverted Way, This Perversion is Ordained by Elohim/God.

In relation to your last statement Elohim/God is the Only Authority. Elohim/God is Good and Evil.

 

[Elihoenai]

I'm on these forums because I greatly enjoy discussing religion. It's fun.

I am an openminded person, as is shown by the fact that in my life, I have changed my mind on some pretty major issues. For example, I have done an about turn on things like evolution and free will.

I'm very picky about what I accept as evidence. Quite frankly, a great many people on forums do not rise to those standards. But when someone does, I certainly listen to them.

Matthew 15:14

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


You sound like the Billions of Christians in Christendom that are only Interested in having Fun. Your Judaic Teachers have not taught you to appreciate the Gravity of your situation because they hare Not learnt such themselves. This is about Life and Death.

When you talk about Evidence you sound like the Atheists on these Forums. In True Religion things are not proved through External Evidence given by others. In True Religion Conviction and Evidence comes from Personal Totally Devoted Religious Practice.

 

[Elihoenai]

No actually they can't. All tribal peoples have rules that guide who they accept as a member of their tribe. Outsiders have NO SAY IN IT. You cannot declare yourself a Jew any more than you can declare yourself a Lakota or Zulu or Cherokee.

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Yes they certainly can. And it has been done and is being done. The Christians declare that they are Spiritual Jews. Christians are Inward Jews. Do you accept that Christians are Spiritual Jews?

 

[Elihoenai]

Well, the biblical text does say

and thou shalt come to the priests the Levites, and to the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall tell thee the sentence of judgment:


וְעָשִׂ֗יתָ עַל־פִּ֤י הַדָּבָר֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר יַגִּ֣ידֽוּ לְךָ֔ מִן־הַמָּק֣וֹם הַה֔וּא אֲשֶׁ֖ר יִבְחַ֣ר יְהֹוָ֑ה וְשָׁמַרְתָּ֣ לַעֲשׂ֔וֹת כְּכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר יוֹרֽוּךָ׃
and thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the Lord shall choose shall tell thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:


עַל־פִּ֨י הַתּוֹרָ֜ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר יוֹר֗וּךָ וְעַל־הַמִּשְׁפָּ֛ט אֲשֶׁר־יֹאמְר֥וּ לְךָ֖ תַּעֲשֶׂ֑ה לֹ֣א תָס֗וּר מִן־הַדָּבָ֛ר אֲשֶׁר־יַגִּ֥ידֽוּ לְךָ֖ יָמִ֥ין וּשְׂמֹֽאל׃
according to the sentence of the Tora which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not deviate from the sentence which they shall tell thee, to the right hand, or to the left.

Isaiah 1:10

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.


Elohim/God has given the Judaic Priests Authority over you. I'm not under the Authority of your Judaic Priests. Also Remember that there have been Corrupt Priests leading the Flock Astray throughout the history of Israel. The same Corruption happens in Christendom with the Corrupt Priests/Pastors.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Romans 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Yes they certainly can. And it has been done and is being done. The Christians declare that they are Spiritual Jews. Christians are Inward Jews. Do you accept that Christians are Spiritual Jews?

It is irrelevant what Christians think a Jew is. Outsiders do not get to make the rules as to who is and is not a Jew. Does the PTO get to decide who is a Zulu?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Matthew 15:14

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


You sound like the Billions of Christians in Christendom that are only Interested in having Fun. Your Judaic Teachers have not taught you to appreciate the Gravity of your situation because they hare Not learnt such themselves. This is about Life and Death.

When you talk about Evidence you sound like the Atheists on these Forums. In True Religion things are not proved through External Evidence given by others. In True Religion Conviction and Evidence comes from Personal Totally Devoted Religious Practice.

Okay, you disagree with me, so your response is to make a personal attack? Okay, got it.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

In relation to your last statement Elohim/God is the Only Authority. Elohim/God is Good and Evil.

That is clearly not the case in the Torah. For example, Moses is an authority. The seventy elders are for example an authority.

 

[rosends]

The text reflects keeping the commandments.

And listing who the interpretive and application experts are to help understand and use the law. That's in the text.

Are you trying to condemn Jews again?

No. What are you talking about? Not only haven't I condemned Jews before (so "again" is an unnecessary lie and attack) but by saying that the text applies to Jews and not non-Jews I am not condemning anyone.

***STAFF EDIT***

So calling me a "Loser" isn't a calling me a name? Or are you just blind to what you wrote?

 

[rosends]

Isaiah 1:10

10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.


Elohim/God has given the Judaic Priests Authority over you. I'm not under the Authority of your Judaic Priests. Also Remember that there have been Corrupt Priests leading the Flock Astray throughout the history of Israel. The same Corruption happens in Christendom with the Corrupt Priests/Pastors.

OK, but I am under the authority of the priests, Levites and judges as dictated by the text. If you are advocating ditching the text, I can't support that.

 

[Bthoth]

Absolutely in Total Agreement. Elohim/God has put the Laws in Effect to Govern Civil Society. Yes, every person Must keep the Laws in Service to Elohim/God and the benefit of Civil Society. The Greater Commitment and Devotion to Elohim/God the Greater the Benefit to Civil Society.

Mankind created the rules/laws. best to write what is true on that start.

Service? Devotion? That style is based on submission to other when in spirit people should do what is right by choice and for the good of the whole.............. all of us.

 

[Bthoth]

Matthew 15:14

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

In True Religion Conviction and Evidence comes from Personal Totally Devoted Religious Practice.

I scratched the incorrect parts keeping in mind the line above.

 

[Bthoth]

That is clearly not the case in the Torah. For example, Moses is an authority. The seventy elders are for example an authority.

That's religion.

For example: Moses is not here, nor wrote a word of torah........... Please keep the facts as benchmarks before implying what is authority.

 

[Bthoth]

And listing who the interpretive and application experts are to help understand and use the law. That's in the text.

I can read the commandments, just as any lettered person is just as capable.

You can accept another (others) as authority but the rest DO NOT.

No. What are you talking about? Not only haven't I condemned Jews before (so "again" is an unnecessary lie and attack) but by saying that the text applies to Jews and not non-Jews I am not condemning anyone.

Now you have drilled single words to be an attack?

Based on that methodology when will you hold yourself accountable for 'attacking' me?

So calling me a "Loser" isn't a calling me a name? Or are you just blind to what you wrote?

I did identify dross too, very clearly as israel and like our conversations here, you DO NOT like to learn beyond your beliefs.

Some claim 'others' are the authority of reading torah/law but then if an'other' exposes clear understanding, the attacks come with full force.

For example: Israel is not the last word and levites are not the gods of mankind, no matter which god told any person.

Using that old ideology of your religion is the finality exposes that the teachers DO NOT give the correct interpretation.

The perfect evidence: what is unveiling and/or what is messiah to do? Answer that perfects the fact that the old (levites) have not done it right!

Accept the honest practice over any other authority!

 

[rosends]

I can read the commandments, just as any lettered person is just as capable.

You can accept another (others) as authority but the rest DO NOT.

So you are saying others ignore what the text says the way you do?

Now you have drilled single words to be an attack?

Based on that methodology when will you hold yourself accountable for 'attacking' me?

So you are ignoring that every word has meaning and value? A person can write anything not be held accountable for what he wrote? How did I attack you by pointing out your errors?

I did identify dross too, very clearly as israel and like our conversations here, you DO NOT like to learn beyond your beliefs.

Some claim 'others' are the authority of reading torah/law but then if an'other' exposes clear understanding, the attacks come with full force.

For example: Israel is not the last word and levites are not the gods of mankind, no matter which god told any person.

Using that old ideology of your religion is the finality exposes that the teachers DO NOT give the correct interpretation.

The perfect evidence: what is unveiling and/or what is messiah to do? Answer that perfects the fact that the old (levites) have not done it right!

Accept the honest practice over any other authority!

all of this which avoids that you called me a "Loser" and then said you never called me names.
If you would like to discuss the messianic idea in Judaism, you should probably begin a thread about it and ask Jews respectfully to explain what you don't understand.

 

[Bthoth]

OK, but I am under the authority of the priests, Levites and judges as dictated by the text. If you are advocating ditching the text, I can't support that.

What text is the most important: the commandment (tablets) of the ark/moses/mt sinai or what came after?

 

[Bthoth]

all of this which avoids that you called me a "Loser" and then said you never called me names.

The label is an error based on the forum rules. But likewise, you have done far worse but i choose to forget and unwilling to chase the comments down.

I understand it bothered you. I do not wish to harm but to assist a mind and others to become better than they have accepted.

If you would like to discuss the messianic idea in Judaism, you should probably begin a thread about it and ask Jews respectfully to explain what you don't understand.

There is an example: YOU, telling me that I do not understand. It's rude!

Again, YOU and YOUR religious observance is not the last word.

 

[Bthoth]

So you are saying others ignore what the text says the way you do?

No i did not say that. Those are your words (narrative).

So you are ignoring that every word has meaning and value?

NO, again, that is YOUR narrative of what I am writing.

A person can write anything not be held accountable for what he wrote? How did I attack you by pointing out your errors?

MY errors? Just stop there, you are neither a judge nor authority.

When you come across as having a better mind or capability, you create the initial error.

If you cannot employ empathy and convey why I am wrong, without using an imposition of authority as yourself or others, then the loss is already self implied.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's religion.

Religion has its authorities, same as any institution.

For example: Moses is not here, nor wrote a word of torah........... Please keep the facts as benchmarks before implying what is authority.

So? You have a very bad habit of making comments that do not address the subject.

 

[Bthoth]

Religion has its authorities, same as any institution.

I am well aware of that. My awareness of that model does not make it the correct methodology.

So? You have a very bad habit of making comments that do not address the subject.

And you do not?
This post is exact evidence that you are trying to put dominion over me, directly.

The topic is israel. Not who or what is authority.

Israel is a state, not a people, nor a religiously bound population or religious opinion of god's creation/authority/designation of authority.

 

[rosends]

What text is the most important: the commandment (tablets) of the ark/moses/mt sinai or what came after?

what about what came before? Why are you trying to rank them? What do you think Moses got at Sinai?