Who Or What Is Israel?

[rosends]

The label is an error based on the forum rules.

So now you admit breaking the rules and admit that your claim that you didn't call me a name was a lie. OK.

But likewise, you have done far worse but i choose to forget and unwilling to chase the comments down.

Unwilling or unable?

I understand it bothered you. I do not wish to harm but to assist a mind and others to become better than they have accepted.

So calling someone a loser was designed to assist? Interesting.

There is an example: YOU, telling me that I do not understand. It's rude!

Telling someone who asks about a Jewish notion of a messianic idea that he doesn't know what that idea is (thus confirming the need for the question) is rude?

Or did you ask me because you DO know in which case the question is unnecessary.

Again, YOU and YOUR religious observance is not the last word.

My religious observance is not the last word, except about the meaning of my observance. You want to have a different interpretation, not informed by the context and content that defines my observance, feel free, but that won't make it part of the understanding WITHIN the context and based in the content as the group to whom it was given understands it.

 

[Bthoth]

what about what came before?

Before the commandments, moses was raised in egypt.

Why are you trying to rank them?

Rank them.... precedence of importance. Before any authority was given to torah or the teachers, the commandments.

What do you think Moses got at Sinai?

The commandments per the story. 10 of them on stone. Well before torah.

What came before that, is HE lived in egypt, per the story as there is no historical reference in egypt of the moses.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am well aware of that.

Then why are you arguing so vehemently against the fact that Torah sets up human authorities to interpret the law?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What text is the most important: the commandment (tablets) of the ark/moses/mt sinai or what came after?

The 613 commandments, including the 10 in stone, cannot be followed without the interpretations which followed.

 

[rosends]

No i did not say that. Those are your words (narrative).

Sure you did. I gave a text that said that Levites, priests and judges are the authority and you are saying not to follow that. You are also saying that no rational person would accept them as authority so you are saying that any and every observant Jew is not rational just for following what the text says.
"But NEVRE expect rational people top accept levites as the judges of mankind."

NO, again, that is YOUR narrative of what I am writing.

No, I presented a word you used and explained why it was in error. You then trivialized paying attention to each word ("Now you have drilled single words to be an attack?" as if a single word cannot be an attack?)

MY errors? Just stop there, you are neither a judge nor authority.

Sure I am -- if you make a claim about Judaism and are wrong about it, then that's an error. If you make a claim about me (that i am trying to "condemn" Jews and it isn't true), I'll call out your error.

When you come across as having a better mind or capability, you create the initial error.

If you cannot employ empathy and convey why I am wrong, without using an imposition of authority as yourself or others, then the loss is already self implied.

If you can't acknolwedge that you are wrong about things then you will never learn.

 

[rosends]

Before the commandments, moses was raised in egypt.

Yeah...some other stuff happened as well, including commandments.

Rank them.... precedence of importance. Before any authority was given to torah or the teachers, the commandments.

Authority has to be "given" to the Torah? OK, so in order of importance we have
Jewish law
then
everything else.

Hope that helps.

The commandments per the story. 10 of them on stone. Well before torah.

Actually not and the text never calls them commandments.

What came before that, is HE lived in egypt, per the story as there is no historical reference in egypt of the moses.

Then, again, you don't know the content of the bible. Before (the) Moses ascended Sinai there were already commandments in place according to the text.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

MY errors? Just stop there, you are neither a judge nor authority.

Rosends is a rabbi. This means he has had years and years of study in Jewish law, was determined to have gained expertise, and was given semikha to indicate his status as an EXPERT. So yes, that makes him an authority on Jewish law.

You, on the other hand, are not.

 

[Bthoth]

So now you admit breaking the rules and admit that your claim that you didn't call me a name was a lie. OK.

And your point? DO you want to impose upon me, before accepting your accusations and ill regard for me?

Unwilling or unable?

I am unwilling to dig up your ill regard for me that you put to writing on this forum. I am not making up your dissent and discontent for my comments

So calling someone a loser was designed to assist? Interesting.

Again, you write narratives to fit how you want to apply. I wrote what I am about without hatred or bias but to represent my reason.

Telling someone who asks about a Jewish notion of a messianic idea that he doesn't know what that idea is (thus confirming the need for the question) is rude?

Of course, you just now wrote your dissent-discontent for me ignoring the idea that I open a new thread on messianic comprehension. Do you have that right?

The purpose of messiah is to unveil. Does that statement bother you. I used the term to confirm, that the levites (teachers) are and have made errors and a pure comprehension that the coming is to finish the works. Does that bother you?

Or did you ask me because you DO know in which case the question is unnecessary.

I did not ask you. I helped you realize, that if them teachers/authorities are so good then why would the coming be important.

My religious observance is not the last word,

That is fact.

except about the meaning of my observance.

Which is OK, but you cannot impose that I take your observance as absolute even if it puts into question your own beliefs and accepted authority. For example: who and what is Jewish. Just because your accepted authorities are different, does not make you correct or an authority.

You want to have a different interpretation,

Which is OK. That is how knowledge evolves; others convey beyond the previous beliefs / opinions. What i am most definitely observant of, is the commandments are as good then as now. Quite key in deriving truth.

not informed by the context and content that defines my observance, feel free, but that won't make it part of the understanding WITHIN the context and based in the content as the group to whom it was given understands it.

There you go again, trying to impose that the followers like yourself are the authority and no one has a right to question such authority.

It's silly to keep such a mindset. It would be about like the pope trying to claim that he was chosen by god to have the last word.

Or a person of physics that studied Einsteins work as being the last word on how nature works.

 

[rosends]

And your point? DO you want to impose upon me, before accepting your accusations and ill regard for me?

My point is that you admitted to lying.

I am unwilling to dig up your ill regard for me that you put to writing on this forum. I am not making up your dissent and discontent for my comments

So unable. Got it.

Again, you write narratives to fit how you want to apply. I wrote what I am about without hatred or bias but to represent my reason.

I took your words. I didn't make anything up. You used the word, and you said your goal was to assist. Therefore, unless you are lying again, you used that word to assist. Correct?

Of course, you just now wrote your dissent-discontent for me ignoring the idea that I open a new thread on messianic comprehension. Do you have that right?

I can't answer that until you rewrite it in English.

The purpose of messiah is to unveil.

Says who?

Does that statement bother you.

No. It amuses me because it has no source so your assertion of it as fact is funny.

I used the term to confirm, that the levites (teachers) are and have made errors and a pure comprehension that the coming is to finish the works. Does that bother you?

No, nor does it change what the text says.

I did not ask you.

Post 397, "what is unveiling and/or what is messiah to do?" That isn't a question?

I helped you realize, that if them teachers/authorities are so good then why would the coming be important.

Then you don't know the role of the messiah if you ask that.

Which is OK, but you cannot impose that I take your observance as absolute even if it puts into question your own beliefs and accepted authority. For example: who and what is Jewish. Just because your accepted authorities are different, does not make you correct or an authority.

But you are no authority so while you might say that there are different authoritative answers, yours isn't one of them.

Which is OK. That is how knowledge evolves; others convey beyond the previous beliefs / opinions. What i am most definitely observant of, is the commandments are as good then as now.

Except for the parts which you say no rational person would follow.

There you go again, trying to impose that the followers like yourself are the authority and no one has a right to question such authority.

It's silly to keep such a mindset. It would be about like the pope trying to claim that he was chosen by god to have the last word.

Or a person of physics that studied Einsteins work as being the last word on how nature works.

more like a person unschooled in physics telling Einstein he is no authority and that the person has his own understanding of physics and Einstein is wrong. Good luck with that.

 

[Bthoth]

Yeah...some other stuff happened as well, including commandments.

Again, the commandments existed before the stories of torah. The commandments are still more important than torah.

Authority has to be "given" to the Torah?

NO.. that is about like claiming the bible is the final word because words of bible claim it was inspired by god.

Do you accept bible over torah?

OK, so in order of importance we have
Jewish law
then
everything else.

OK, keep the commandments over all choices. ps.... the 10 are first.

I am trying be certain of that.

Hope that helps.

Actually not and the text never calls them commandments.

As you learned because your interpretation will and has come from your belief that YOUR language preference supersedes all other.

You have used that argument many times over. Leading to the same concept, that you are authority over me. because I do not even try to learn an obsolete language.

Then, again, you don't know the content of the bible. Before (the) Moses ascended Sinai there were already commandments in place according to the text.

The text (torah) came well after the tablets of mt sinai. Do you have the ark to prove the commandments even existed or just the torah claiming that they came from mt sinai.

I put the commandments as priority because they resonate with personal comprehension of responsibility, not because it is written that a god wrote them.

Just as I eat because of being hungry not because someone tells me to.

 

[Bthoth]

Rosends is a rabbi. This means he has had years and years of study in Jewish law, was determined to have gained expertise, and was given semikha to indicate his status as an EXPERT. So yes, that makes him an authority on Jewish law.

OK, thanks for the explanation of why the person is so emotional on being questioned and doubted.

Now I completely understand why so much dissent.

You, on the other hand, are not.

perhaps because i have studied far beyond just torah/tanakh/talmud/midrash.

Did rose, write and comprehend the mathematical theorem describing the transition of mass/energy/time to comprehend how existence works?

I have none here to tell you how much I have studied and the half century of commitment to learning.

But just because I do not accept the religious authority DOES NOT make me an enemy or bad guy. If I was worried about self and putting a feather in my cap, i would have used 'the name' for self gratification, power and control decade and decades ago.

But in the stead, i spent the time to learn beyond even what I grew up in as my own choice and commitment to give back in thanks for even being alive.

 

[rosends]

Again, the commandments existed before the stories of torah. The commandments are still more important than torah.

You are completely lost. Where do you think the commandments are rrecorded?

NO.. that is about like claiming the bible is the final word because words of bible claim it was inspired by god.

Some written by, some inspired by God.

Do you accept bible over torah?

What are you talking about?

OK, keep the commandments over all choices. ps.... the 10 are first.

No they aren't. Not chronologically or in any other way.

As you learned because your interpretation will and has come from your belief that YOUR language preference supersedes all other.

I'm talking about the language which records the events, not a translation of it.

You have used that argument many times over. Leading to the same concept, that you are authority over me. because I do not even try to learn an obsolete language.

Like someone saying that he should learn English to study the American constitution.

The text (torah) came well after the tablets of mt sinai. Do you have the ark to prove the commandments even existed or just the torah claiming that they came from mt sinai.

It is a matter of belief. If you don't have the ark, you don't acknolwledge the two tablets.

I put the commandments as priority because they resonate with personal comprehension of responsibility, not because it is written that a god wrote them.

But you have no record of them other than in the Torah. If you don't believe the Torah then why do you believe the 10 statements? Oh, because you agree with what you already believe. How to you observe the sabbath? Do you remember it or guard it?

Just as I eat because of being hungry not because someone tells me to.

So you equate eating with establishing a calendar and the various months within it. You would do that without being commanded to? You would keep the sabbath (however you do) without being told to? You would believe in one God just because?

 

[rosends]

If I was worried about self and putting a feather in my cap, i would have used 'the name' for self gratification, power and control decade and decades ago.

so you believe you have some sort of potential power which would allow you power, gratification and control if you decided you wanted to exercise it? That's certainly a delusion-like belief.

 

[Bthoth]

My point is that you admitted to lying.

OK, so you can point at me but do you self reflect what ill regard you have done?

So unable. Got it.

My choice. My capabilities are beyond your scope and comprehension at this point.

I took your words. I didn't make anything up. You used the word,

You used a word but in your own words (narrative)

and you said your goal was to assist. Therefore, unless you are lying again, you used that word to assist. Correct?

Again, you are focused on controlling demoting me. OK

I can't answer that until you rewrite it in English.

So you are here writing in english and cannot comprehend english................ funny guy!

Says who?

ME, myself and I........... all 3 of us (ha ha)

No. It amuses me because it has no source so your assertion of it as fact is funny.

I have many sources, not just your single scope and accepted reference.

No, nor does it change what the text says.

Not trying to change the text. What are you doing now?

Post 397, "what is unveiling and/or what is messiah to do?" That isn't a question?

Exposing the rational of what the prophecy/comprehension is about. The term messiah is greek for anointed, that term in itself is a joke to me, as it means a person is given authority by men (or a person deity) . I am completely of opposing ideals: the good do the work by choice, not because they are anointed or given authority.

For example: did you pursue your learning because of being anointed by god or because you chose to learn?

Then you don't know the role of the messiah if you ask that.

Okey dokey....... again, you infer condemnation of me personally before trying to understand/learn.

But you are no authority so while you might say that there are different authoritative answers, yours isn't one of them.

OK..... move on. You do not observe me as even capable and I do not accept you as relevant to even the topic.

Except for the parts which you say no rational person would follow.

I do not write for any such requirement.

more like a person unschooled in physics telling Einstein he is no authority

I honor what Einstein contributed to mankind well beyond most that you will ever even meet. I enjoyed his humility even if others observed the man almost as a god.

and that the person has his own understanding of physics and Einstein is wrong. Good luck with that.

Even einstein knew the work was incomplete, just like any good teacher of religion also accepts the fact that there is much to do.

YOU? Do you have any such humility?

 

[Bthoth]

You are completely lost. Where do you think the commandments are rrecorded?

In many places. From the code of hammuraby to the book of ma'at and in many flavors throughout the word.

They resonate with conscious life about universal.

Some written by, some inspired by God.

OK, many put their belief in an authority before letting their heart accept the comprehension

I'm talking about the language which records the events, not a translation of it.

The torah is not a recording of events. It's an opinion 100's if not 1000's of years after the facts.

Like someone saying that he should learn English to study the American constitution.

Why, the indigenous had many of the guidelines in their culture before the constitution. Just as most of the commandments, existed in egypt before moses was even born.

It is a matter of belief. If you don't have the ark, you don't acknolwledge the two tablets.

Since you dont have the ark, then does that mean you dont have any commandments?

But you have no record of them other than in the Torah.

Sure I do. In more places than you have.

If you don't believe the Torah then why do you believe the 10 statements?

Because they are solid and existed well before torah.

Oh, because you agree with what you already believe. How to you observe the sabbath? Do you remember it or guard it?

As a day of resting and time to self reflect.

So you equate eating with establishing a calendar and the various months within it.

I equate eating with being as natural as accepting the commandments are solid.

You would do that without being commanded to?

Eating, sleeping, breathing and in my case being honest beyond beliefs.

You would keep the sabbath (however you do) without being told to? You would believe in one God just because?

That is a religious imposition, to worship.............. it's not natural. But accepting that all of us (mankind) live within nature, is easy.

 

[Bthoth]

so you believe you have some sort of potential power which would allow you power, gratification and control if you decided you wanted to exercise it? That's certainly a delusion-like belief.

I do not believe any such nonsense. But I am well aware that knowledge is more powerful, than any other scope that a human being can possess.

Again, you just tried AGAIN, to condemn me as "delusion-like"

Is that your MO to continuously subjugate a soul?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

And your point? DO you want to impose upon me, before accepting your accusations and ill regard for me?

The point is that you engaged in name calling when you called Rosends a loser. It's rude. You often respond to innocent things people stay with unjustified hostility. Basically, you act mean. If people hold you in ill regard, it is simply a response to the way you have chosen to conduct yourself in the forum.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

OK, thanks for the explanation of why the person is so emotional on being questioned and doubted.

Everything I have seen from him shows the utmost patience with you. The only overly emotional responses I have seen in the conversation are yours, such as when you respond with hostility to perfectly innocent statements.

 

[Bthoth]

The point is that you engaged in name calling when you called Rosends a loser. It's rude.

OK.... Is that the last time to read that? or will it haunt me, that I cannot use the same methodology as the israeli defenders.

You often respond to innocent things people stay with unjustified hostility.

Innocent? That is funny to even imply, the hostile. lack the integrity to accept being wrong and react. I have agreed and will agree not to call a loser as a loser. But tell the rude not to call or imply that I am delusional. I was going to start copying each insult upon me, to try and stop the behavior of the other but then you told me, that you accept the rose as an authority. Which perfected what I am coming to realize, that the bias is within the group and either I learn how to improve my method of addressing the obtuse/biased, that I could hear from the forum operators again.

Basically, you act mean.

If you believe that I have been mean, then you will be surprised when you see what mean is.

If people hold you in ill regard, it is simply a response to the way you have chosen to conduct yourself in the forum.

To the obtuse, yes.... them few will have an ill regard. Calling israel as an apartheid is not bad conduct, it is just am example of unmitigated honesty.

I DO NOT accept a religious authority as controlling and eventually the children will learn that very same reality. What is rude is having the 'accepted' being allowed to levy insults based on language. I find it disgusting that the use of that frame is even allowed. If a person wants to clarify, then they can offer, the specific and NEVER try to insult. Use empathy before the arrogance of pride.

Using that language barrier.....just like above (repeating the mistake of using the term loser) as a reason to further trying to condemn is just wrong.

If no one made a mistake, there would be no religion or commandments. How could any life learn, if they did not make mistakes?

If I did not make mistakes, i would have already wrote the 'book of life' but i have been humbled by my own self reflection, to realize that there is far more to take into consideration. I was under the impression for a long time, that there was a primary group to approach but now I am well aware that was a huge mistake to even consider. For example and to be very specific: the 12 tribes are not of israel but of mankind.

What IS REAL is the big picture not an arm pit of a state!

 

[Bthoth]

Everything I have seen from him shows the utmost patience with you.

Of course, you have a preference. I get it. Again, please end the topic of how wrong that I am.

The only overly emotional responses I have seen in the conversation are yours, such as when you respond with hostility to perfectly innocent statements.

You're statements are not innocent, this post is rehashing the same issue.

It's dead!

I was wrong. I accept the mistake.

But it will not make me accept the authority of the obtuse and the biased.