Who Or What Is Israel?

[rosends]

You used a word but in your own words (narrative)

you used a word. I just pointed it out.

Again, you are focused on controlling demoting me. OK

By pointing out your lie? That controls you?

So you are here writing in english and cannot comprehend english................ funny guy!

When you write in gibberish, knowing English doesn't help.

Not trying to change the text. What are you doing now?

Pointing out how you deny the text.

Exposing the rational of what the prophecy/comprehension is about.

do you mean rationale?

The term messiah is greek for anointed, that term in itself is a joke to me, as it means a person is given authority by men (or a person deity) . I am completely of opposing ideals: the good do the work by choice, not because they are anointed or given authority.

So you are denying what the text says the role of the future messiah is and the divine nature of the text that defines said messiah.

For example: did you pursue your learning because of being anointed by god or because you chose to learn?

But I'm not anointed. What are you talking about?

Okey dokey....... again, you infer condemnation of me personally before trying to understand/learn.

One does not "infer condemnation". I simply point out that you don't know the sources if you make the claims you do about the nature of the messiah.

I do not write for any such requirement.

What does that even mean. The fact is, you made a claim that no rational person would follow what the text says.

Even einstein knew the work was incomplete, just like any good teacher of religion also accepts the fact that there is much to do.

But it would take a physicist to understand what was incomplete. In the same way, it takes a person schooled in a religion to know where that religion stands and how it moves forward. Are you a physicist? Because you certainly aren't an expert on Judaism.

 

[rosends]

In many places. From the code of hammuraby to the book of ma'at and in many flavors throughout the word.

They resonate with conscious life about universal.

So not the biblical commandments and now you are talking about other stuff.

The torah is not a recording of events. It's an opinion 100's if not 1000's of years after the facts.

Some people believe that it is not a recording of events but instead an opinion, before "before letting their heart accept the comprehension"

Why, the indigenous had many of the guidelines in their culture before the constitution. Just as most of the commandments, existed in egypt before moses was even born.

and the commandments before Egypt?

Since you dont have the ark, then does that mean you dont have any commandments?

Nope, but according to your logic, it means you don't.

Sure I do. In more places than you have.

You are calling all codes of laws from any culture "commandments".

Because they are solid and existed well before torah.

Part of that requires that you believe certain things about the Torah which I don't believe.

As a day of resting and time to self reflect.

The text says that you have to guard it and remember it by not doing any work. Do you follow that?

I equate eating with being as natural as accepting the commandments are solid.

That's not what you said nor does it answer what I asked.

Eating, sleeping, breathing and in my case being honest beyond beliefs.

That is a religious imposition, to worship.............. it's not natural. But accepting that all of us (mankind) live within nature, is easy.

you say it isn't natural. I say it is the most natural thing.

 

[rosends]

I do not believe any such nonsense.

and you you wrote, "i would have used 'the name' for self gratification, power and control decade and decades ago."

So that's exactly what you believe. Why lie about your delusion-like statement? I'm not "condemning" you (do you even know what that word means)? I'm pointing out that you have an untenable belief about your own supernatural abilities. "a false belief or judgment about external reality, held despite incontrovertible evidence to the contrary"

 

[Bthoth]

So you are denying what the text says the role of the future messiah is and the divine nature of the text that defines said messiah.

Divine? No such thing.

But I'm not anointed.

I know

One does not "infer condemnation". I simply point out that you don't know the sources if you make the claims you do about the nature of the messiah.

natural person is the nature of the man.

What does that even mean. The fact is, you made a claim that no rational person would follow what the text says.

New religions were created because "no rational person would follow what the text says."

But it would take a physicist to understand what was incomplete.

And physicist all over the world do claim many phenomena are unanswered. I read what einstein said on many topics to know what HE was thinking.

In the same way, it takes a person schooled in a religion to know where that religion stands and how it moves forward.

It moves forward as knowledge evolves.

Are you a physicist? Because you certainly aren't an expert on Judaism.

Of course and you are accepted to represent what you tell me that I am not capable of.

 

[rosends]

Divine? No such thing.

Great, so you are an atheist.

I know

Then why did you ask what you asked?

natural person is the nature of the man.

that doesn't make any sense at all, nor does it address what I wrote.

New religions were created because "no rational person would follow what the text says."

That doesn't address what I wrote.

And physicist all over the world do claim many phenomena are unanswered. I read what einstein said on many topics to know what HE was thinking.

But that wasn't what the point was.

It moves forward as knowledge evolves.

and what does that have to do with what I was responding to?

Of course and you are accepted to represent what you tell me that I am not capable of.

I'm glad you are able to accept that I speak with authority. Thanks.

 

[Bthoth]

So not the biblical commandments and now you are talking about other stuff.

You asked where. I told you. Yes many bibles in many translations. Bible was not the first nor perfect.

Some people believe that it is not a recording of events but instead an opinion, before "before letting their heart accept the comprehension"

The heart does comprehend commandments, the histories represented are most often just opinions. For example: exodus.

and the commandments before Egypt?

You asked about the US constitution and I added that egypt had the commandments before Moses.

Nope, but according to your logic, it means you don't.

I followed your logic. You dont like mine.

You are calling all codes of laws from any culture "commandments".

No, those are your words. I pointed out, that the commandments existed in many cultures. The 10 are about natural to conscious life.

Part of that requires that you believe certain things about the Torah which I don't believe.

I am well aware that you do not believe, that others can understand torah.

I said the rule (commandments) existed before torah/bible and found all over the world.

The text says that you have to guard it and remember it by not doing any work. Do you follow that?

OK, you have explained what you know.

That's not what you said nor does it answer what I asked.

OK.............. My point is, no one owns the capability of civility, it's natural to the conscious mind.

you say it isn't natural. I say it is the most natural thing.

Worship? No it is man made just like accepting a special tribe as having control of interpretations............ additions to impose and sustain compliance.

Both will end!

 

[Bthoth]

Great, so you are an atheist.

As usual, the observant label a person as atheist for non compliance.

Then why did you ask what you asked?

Because you expect submission/compliance.

that doesn't make any sense at all, nor does it address what I wrote.

Because you do not accept what i wrote.

That doesn't address what I wrote.

Sure it does, you expect compliance and I pointed out, that new religions were created because the majority would not nor did accept your model and method as you see it.

But that wasn't what the point was.

OK... you have your opinion, I did the work personally.

and what does that have to do with what I was responding to?

I pointed out that knowledge moves forward beyond religious control and how/why the religions evolve.

I'm glad you are able to accept that I speak with authority. Thanks.

Thanks as you just perfected my opinion: you expect submission/compliance but NO, i do not submit to your expected / claimed idea.

 

[rosends]

You asked about the US constitution and I added that egypt had the commandments before Moses.

So this is all just word association for you.

I followed your logic. You dont like mine.

You didn't follow your own logic. That must be why you don't see the problem you created for yourself.

No, those are your words. I pointed out, that the commandments existed in many cultures. The 10 are about natural to conscious life.

Except that what existed in other cultures (which might overlap with some of the biblical commandments) are not commandments in Judaism.

I am well aware that you do not believe, that others can understand torah.

Plenty of others understand Torah. That's because they actually study it.

Worship? No it is man made just like accepting a special tribe as having control of interpretations............ additions to impose and sustain compliance.

Both will end!

that is certainly your belief.

 

[rosends]

As usual, the observant label a person as atheist for non compliance.

no, for non-belief

Because you expect submission/compliance.

Why do you say that? I'm just using language. Do you have a problem with that?

Because you do not accept what i wrote.

No, because your word salad doesn't address what I wrote.

Sure it does, you expect compliance and I pointed out, that new religions were created because the majority would not nor did accept your model and method as you see it.

What "compliance" do I expect? You are just saying that anyone who accepts Judaism as I understand it is irrational. Is that your claim?

Thanks as you just perfected my opinion: you expect submission/compliance but NO, i do not submit to your expected / claimed idea.

you are the one who wrote "you are accepted to represent what you tell me that I am not capable of". Why do you then say that I expect compliance (whatever that means)?

 

[Bthoth]

So this is all just word association for you.

No... I replied and you go sideways trying to get me to follow your path.

You didn't follow your own logic. That must be why you don't see the problem you created for yourself.

I dont have a problem. Submission to an authority is the problem.

Except that what existed in other cultures (which might overlap with some of the biblical commandments) are not commandments in Judaism.

OK... lots of cultures plagiarized previous cultural observances, For example: torah borrowed from egypt and bible took tanakh.

Plenty of others understand Torah. That's because they actually study it.

Sure, i have studied torah/tanakh/bible and many others. I have comprehended the good of the wisdom without submission to a teachers authority.

that is certainly your belief.

Thank you, at least you can accept that some people do not submit to religious authority.

The people that left thebes of egypt, did the same thing. In torah it is called an exodus. I call it a schism.

 

[rosends]

No... I replied and you go sideways trying to get me to follow your path.

I don't recall ever telling you to follow my path.

I dont have a problem. Submission to an authority is the problem.

You must have trouble going to the doctor then.

OK... lots of cultures plagiarized previous cultural observances, For example: torah borrowed from egypt and bible took tanakh.

if you want to believe that, have fun.

Sure, i have studied torah/tanakh/bible and many others. I have comprehended the good of the wisdom without submission to a teachers authority.

right, and in the same way I have studied car repair. No one taught me because I don't need a teacher's authority. So now I'm going to go fix a car even though my learning has taught me that a piece of wire and some plastic wrap can fix an engine.

The people that left thebes of egypt, did the same thing. In torah it is called an exodus. I call it a schism.

Why would anyone care what you call it?

 

[Bthoth]

no, for non-belief

That is your reason. I just identified the act of imposing the label. You dont believe that people are capable. What is the word that I can use to identify you?

Why do you say that? I'm just using language. Do you have a problem with that?

You called me an atheist (a label). That is not good language but you are conforming to your religion, so your opinion is accepted. That is where I have a problem, the use of labeling by your own hand and others will accept it. In the past, 14-1500's people could be killed for being accused by someone like you.

""Witch hysteria really took hold in Europe during the mid-1400s, when many accused witches confessed, often under torture, to a variety of wicked behaviors. Within a century, witch hunts were common and most of the accused were executed by burning at the stake or hanging."""

""Giulio Cesare Vanini, also accused of being an atheist, was burned at the stake in 1619."

No, because your word salad doesn't address what I wrote.

Of course, questioning your opinion as being the authority does not fit to you. You expect to be an absolute authority.

What "compliance" do I expect? You are just saying that anyone who accepts Judaism as I understand it is irrational. Is that your claim?

There you go moving the goal post. I have written many times overs that I love judaism. I am well aware that there are many flavors of judaism. For example: many that maintain the religion condemn israel.

I am aware that what makes judaism so good is the wisdom of personal responsibility.

you are the one who wrote "you are accepted to represent what you tell me that I am not capable of". Why do you then say that I expect compliance (whatever that means)?

You labeled me 'atheist' for not accepting your opinion. And here, you are accepted as an authority and allowed to tell me what I am not capable of (which is learning beyond your opinion).

 

[rosends]

That is your reason. I just identified the act of imposing the label. You dont believe that people are capable. What is the word that I can use to identify you?

In this context, Jewish.

You called me an atheist (a label). That is not good language but you are conforming to your religion, so your opinion is accepted. That is where I have a problem, the use of labeling by your own hand and others will accept it. In the past, 14-1500's people could be killed for being accused by someone like you.

""Witch hysteria really took hold in Europe during the mid-1400s, when many accused witches confessed, often under torture, to a variety of wicked behaviors. Within a century, witch hunts were common and most of the accused were executed by burning at the stake or hanging."""

""Giulio Cesare Vanini, also accused of being an atheist, was burned at the stake in 1619."

Of course, questioning your opinion as being the authority does not fit to you. You expect to be an absolute authority.

Being a Jew led to plenty of killings, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm a Jew. I never claimed to be an absolute authority, just an authority in an area in which you know precious little. And if you want to question me then do so -- but a layperson can't tell Einstein that he's not an authority on physics. It would take someone knowledgable in physics to question Einstein's authority.

There you go moving the goal post. I have written many times overs that I love judaism. I am well aware that there are many flavors of judaism. For example: many that maintain the religion condemn israel.

I didn't move any goal post. I simply quoted what you have written. If you can't own your own statements then there is no point discussing anything with you because you will just forget what you have previously written.

I am aware that what makes judaism so good is the wisdom of personal responsibility.

That is your personal belief.

You labeled me 'atheist' for not accepting your opinion.

No, for denying divinity.

And here, you are accepted as an authority and allowed to tell me what I am not capable of (which is learning beyond your opinion).

I can tell you what you don't know right now and how path you need to take to learn.

 

[Bthoth]

I don't recall ever telling you to follow my path.

NO, you know better. But you do reword comments trying to get me to follow your path

You must have trouble going to the doctor then.

No...... I do fine without you but thank you for another attempt to insult. It is helpful to sustain why I do not comply.

if you want to believe that, have fun.

What's to believe? The evidence of the egyptian culture is recorded in stone.
2600 BCE

About 2000 yrs before torah was ever recorded circumcision was of the egyptian culture, just like the commandments existed in the book of ma'at. The very belief of maintaining submission to the authority of the scribes - teachers and that a blood lineage are the 'chosen ones' is egyptian culture


MOses was born and raised in egypt"

So learning the stories, rules and guidance found in torah came from the libraries and culture of egypt.


2,048 × 1,553


Search inside image
https://egypt-museum.com/circumcision-in-ancient-egypt/
https://egypt-museum.com/circumcision-in-ancient-egypt/

right, and in the same way I have studied car repair. No one taught me because I don't need a teacher's authority. So now I'm going to go fix a car even though my learning has taught me that a piece of wire and some plastic wrap can fix an engine.

Now apply that to MOSES learning from egypt. Funny how that works.

Why would anyone care what you call it?

Because the honest assessment is superior.

 

[rosends]

NO, you know better. But you do reword comments trying to get me to follow your path

So now you develop another conspiracy theory which makes claims about my actions.

No...... I do fine without you but thank you for another attempt to insult. It is helpful to sustain why I do not comply.

You reject authority. So you would reject the authority of a doctor. Simple extension of your stated position.

What's to believe? The evidence of the egyptian culture is recorded in stone.
2600 BCE

That's irrelevant. Your claim wasn't that Egyptian culture existed.

About 2000 yrs before torah was ever recorded circumcision was of the egyptian culture, just like the commandments existed in the book of ma'at. The very belief of maintaining submission to the authority of the scribes - teachers and that a blood lineage are the 'chosen ones' is egyptian culture

Problems:
this requires you hold a specific belief about when the Torah was recorded
this requires you ignore that the Torah's account of circumcision predates the Children of Israel's appearance in Egypt
this requires that you equate the existence of a practice in one culture with the stated commandment obligating that practice in another culture.

MOses was born and raised in egypt"

Well, Goshen, but so what?

So learning the stories, rules and guidance found in torah came from the libraries and culture of egypt.

ah, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Another fallacy.

 

[Bthoth]

Being a Jew led to plenty of killings, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm a Jew. I never claimed to be an absolute authority, just an authority in an area in which you know precious little.

That does not equate to the label.

And if you want to question me then do so --

i do. I question your authority

but a layperson can't tell Einstein that he's not an authority on physics.

I did not question Einstein. I honored him and always have. He maintained a humiltiy of not having it right. I asked you if you had such as well.

It would take someone knowledgable in physics to question Einstein's authority.

Again, i did not question him and HE did not want to be an authority, HE was trying to help mankind.

I didn't move any goal post. I simply quoted what you have written. If you can't own your own statements then there is no point discussing anything with you because you will just forget what you have previously written.

Again, you believe that you have a right to impose to me of my ignorance but as the Einstein comments by you reflect, it is your error of reading what I wrote that is the problem.

That is your personal belief.

I have reason to love judaism and believe the intent was to help mankind. I just do not accept a central authority as you expect.

No, for denying divinity.

So that gives you the right to accuse me?

I can tell you what you don't know right now and how path you need to take to learn.

NO, you can give an opinion of what you think, but you cannot tell me how to think.

I have far more material knowledge than you even consider possible. For example: i did not question Einstein or his contributions but you said that I did. I honor what the man did and HIS humility that the work was incomplete.

Just as I comprehend torah and that 'personal responsibility' is the primary reason the works were written. Combined with comprehending that the long sought messiah is to enable the final comprehension because the torah is not the 'book of life' (owners manual).

 

[rosends]

That does not equate to the label.

that's not comprehensible in English

i do. I question your authority

Based on what? You can feel free to reject my authority or not feel bound by my authority, but on what basis do you question it?

I did not question Einstein. I honored him and always have. He maintained a humiltiy of not having it right. I asked you if you had such as well.

I know what I know and what I don't. I also know what you don't know. You lack the humility to admit that you don't know.

Again, i did not question him and HE did not want to be an authority, HE was trying to help mankind.

Swing and a miss. Nice try but you completely whiffed on the point.

Again, you believe that you have a right to impose to me of my ignorance but as the Einstein comments by you reflect, it is your error of reading what I wrote that is the problem.

"to impose to me of my ignorance"? You really need to work on your English usage. That phrase means nothing. I have read what you wrote (and tried to make sense of all the parts that reflect a lack of Engl;ish language skill on your part) and used your exact wordings and arguments to show you how mistaken you are. You just don't like it.

So that gives you the right to accuse me?

Accuse you of what? I didn't accuse you.

NO, you can give an opinion of what you think, but you cannot tell me how to think.

I get the sense that no one has ever told you how to think.

I have far more material knowledge than you even consider possible. For example: i did not question Einstein or his contributions but you said that I did. I honor what the man did and HIS humility that the work was incomplete.

You have very little actual knowledge in the key areas you try to discuss. Your logic skills fall short -- the "example" you give has nothing to do with your claim to knowledge.

Just as I comprehend torah and that 'personal responsibility' is the primary reason the works were written.

You don't "comprehend" this -- you invent this.

Combined with comprehending that the long sought messiah is to enable the final comprehension because the torah is not the 'book of life' (owners manual).

Again, I don't know what you are talking about and for the most part, I don't care. You can keep your personal interpretations as they have no connection to Judaism.

 

[Bthoth]

So now you develop another conspiracy theory which makes claims about my actions.

NO... there it is again....... rewording to fit your needs.

You reject authority. So you would reject the authority of a doctor. Simple extension of your stated position.

I reject YOU as an authority. Doctors care about people and saving lives please do not compare yourself to a person that takes an oath of helping others.

That's irrelevant. Your claim wasn't that Egyptian culture existed.

I know, my claim is that many items in many religions came from other belief systems. I provided evidence that much of torah came from the egyptian culture. Apparently you do not like it.

Problems:
this requires you hold a specific belief about when the Torah was recorded

About 600 BCE............... Do you have any documentation that proves otherwise? I am willing to ask and observe if you have ANYTHING.

this requires you ignore that the Torah's account of circumcision predates the Children of Israel's appearance in Egypt

I have too much integrity and willing to learn beyond a single scope. Just like the works of Einstein. There is far more material science beyond the 1905 miracle year.

again.... people can think and comprehend far more than what was understood before. The sciences evolve beyond a central authority too. That is how knowledge has evolved beyond religious authority.

this requires that you equate the existence of a practice in one culture with the stated commandment obligating that practice in another culture.

Word salad. But I will try........... a pharaoh was the god that commanded the practice of circumcision before the culture of torah ever existed.

Well, Goshen, but so what?

I can trust that the man (moses) learned and wanted to help 'the people' comprehend beyond a central authority of thebes, egypt, pharaohs and the self proclaiming authority of the scribes/pharisee.

About exactly what I am doing.

ah, post hoc ergo propter hoc. Another fallacy.

See what I mean: if moses was a compliant to central authority as you expect of me, the knowledge may not have evolved to even be recorded in torah.

For some reason, you do not believe that people are capable to learn beyond the beliefs.

But as i have written here, that control that the religious folk require will end!

That is a fact that you must accept.

My scope is, if the new generations are not better equipped than 'we' are then 'we' all failed!

 

[rosends]

I reject YOU as an authority. Doctors care about people and saving lives please do not compare yourself to a person that takes an oath of helping others.

And mechanics? And lawyers? Professionals in each field receive documentation attesting to expertise. But somehow, my achievement means less to you than any other professional's.

I know, my claim is that many items in many religions came from other belief systems. I provided evidence that much of torah came from the egyptian culture. Apparently you do not like it.

You actually only showed that other cultures exist. You did not provide any evidence that one thing came from another.

About 600 BCE............... Do you have any documentation that proves otherwise? I am willing to ask and observe if you have ANYTHING.

Pesachim 54a:9

The Gemara provides sources for the notion that each of these phenomena was created before the world was. Torah was created before the world was created, as it...

www.sefaria.org

Word salad. But I will try........... a pharaoh was the god that commanded the practice of circumcision before the culture of torah ever existed.

Textually, God commanded it before the time in Egypt.

See what I mean: if moses was a compliant to central authority as you expect of me, the knowledge may not have evolved to even be recorded in torah.

He was. God.

That is a fact that you must accept.

that is not a fact, nor "must" I accept it.

 

[Bthoth]

that's not comprehensible in English

So convert it to hebrew. I pointed out that you do not have the right to impose a label upon me.

Based on what? You can feel free to reject my authority or not feel bound by my authority, but on what basis do you question it?

By what you do.

I know what I know and what I don't. I also know what you don't know. You lack the humility to admit that you don't know.

That line is a joke right? You claim to know and then claim to know what I dont know.

I dont know what you ate for breakfast, so I will give you an OK.

"to impose to me of my ignorance"? You really need to work on your English usage. That phrase means nothing.

You believe that you have the right to claim or suggest my ignorance

As if you have an authority and right to impose- calling me atheist.

I have read what you wrote (and tried to make sense of all the parts that reflect a lack of Engl;ish language skill on your part)

Can you even spell english?

and used your exact wordings and arguments to show you how mistaken you are. You just don't like it.

No you add words to make your angle of attack. That last one even used the word 'conspiracy'.

Accuse you of what? I didn't accuse you.

sure you did. You called me atheist for not accepting your belief of worship. and then in the lines above you tried to tell me what I dont know. I agreed that i dont know what you ate for breakfast.

I get the sense that no one has ever told you how to think.

I was taught the commandments at a very young age. Keeping the rules honestly is the best guidance a person can have.

I also learned at a very young age that the new generations are capable to learn beyond beliefs or compliant to any religious authority.

For example: the old and obtuse model tries to make a person believe that the individual is incapable of learning beyond their teachers. I know better.

You have very little actual knowledge in the key areas you try to discuss.

Again, there is that condemnation. Which is how you try to subdue. Be specific about what I do not know (actual example) but DO NOT tell me, what i am not capable of.

Your logic skills fall short -- the "example" you give has nothing to do with your claim to knowledge.

Of course not.......... my logic is the students will and can surpass the teachers. You do not like it.

You don't "comprehend" this -- you invent this.

Are you suggesting that torah does not convey the importance of personal responsibility?

What do you think the commandments are about? They are specifically about personal responsibility. And that is what MOSES per se received from god himself per the torah. Did I invent that logic or did I comprehend beyond your understanding?

Again, I don't know what you are talking about and for the most part, I don't care. You can keep your personal interpretations as they have no connection to Judaism.

I am well aware that you do not care about anything but your own belief that you are the authority.

All you expect is compliance from me.