Who Or What Is Israel?

[Bthoth]

Are you saying that calling you an atheist isn't accurate?

I could call you divine if I could witness such miracle as honesty above belief.

No, because he believed in God

So do I, just with comprehension of what god is.

I have no idea how you define "personal responsibility" or why it is the center of your approach to the bible.

Oh really? Language barrier........... (laugh that was funny)

The reason for the commandment or for following teh commandment.

The commandments are for the individuals to maintain personal responsibility. Basic

I don't ask God his reasons, but follow commandments because the authority in my religion establishes them as obligations.

Really..... I keep them because they make sense about naturally for civil interactions while alive.

So a textual commandment isn't a commandment because it wasn't one of the statements on the tablets?

Most are for religious reasons not personal responsibility.

Or it isn't because the text isn't divine, but the commandment to guard/remember the sabbath by not doing any work at all is a commandment even if the text isn't divine?

The divine are universal and are for the individual to be a better person. Not idolatry, nor preference and most definitely not to separate people.

You asked if the commandments are about a concept you invented as a motivating factor.

I did not invent the concept of personal responsibility. I helped you learn what the term was.

Wait, personal responsibility is the same as "personal choice"?

All personal responsibility is a personal choice.

And these only relate to the subset of statements that you decided are commandments. So how does personal choice impact the first statement which is actually a statement of fact, not subject to choice?

All commandments are of choice. Even the mitzvahs. The good keep the rules by choice, the mitzvahs are religious opinion even if many are actually good wisdom, while others are rude and corrupt.

what's the source for that quote? Is it "brainly.com" or something else?

I did a random look up combining my scope of rational with the term commandments.

Why do you assume a random website speaks with any authority at all (especially when it makes textual mistakes)?

I did not consider it authority. I already comprehended the fact that the commandments and basis of the torah are for people to learn and apply "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY". I comprehend the dialogue and you want to find and use authority as your premise.

Why do you change the text when copying and pasting it to delete sections?

I changed nothing except to bold a term (2 words)

Do you just buy into anything a random website says (one that refers to the Children of Israel as "Hebrews")?

The people may speak the language but hebrew is not the people.

Are you from Argentina?

NO. I am from the country that pays the bills and will not enforce the UN resolutions expressing illegal occupation.

Argentina is against the illegal occupation that israel is imposing

 

[Bthoth]

So you quote something that says that the Torah teachings are from God.

Lots of people believe torah is from god. I asked if you had a word written by god.

Then you claim that not one word was written by God.

I was very succinct as most every religious material claims or makes claims to be from god.

Then you say oops. The oops is that you just contradicted what you quoted.

The oops is you were mistaken. But I did not attack you nor want too. I am well aware that you want to be an authority before wanting to learn from anyone except your chosen guidance.

So either it was foolish to quote it or you don't understand it. Or maybe you just disagree with it and put it up so you could disagree with it but since you don't explain yourself, there is no way to know what you are doing.

Oops indeed.

No, i am consistent and aware of exactly what I am doing. Even if I make mistakes, I can accept making an error and move on.

Knowledge evolves with learning, mistakes and the maturity to evolve/develop.

Be kind first, stop trying to fight me.

 

[rosends]

I could call you divine if I could witness such miracle as honesty above belief.

but I'm not divine and "honesty" isn't the determinant of divinity.

So do I, just with comprehension of what god is.

You denied there is anything divine. Now you are saying you believe in God?

Oh really? Language barrier........... (laugh that was funny)

I'm glad you see that! When you learn English, let me know.

The commandments are for the individuals to maintain personal responsibility. Basic

You still haven't explained what that means to you or why you think it drives the commandments' observance.

Really..... I keep them because they make sense about naturally for civil interactions while alive.

so if something doesn't make sense to you, you ignore it. Understood -- you see yourself as the center.

Most are for religious reasons not personal responsibility.

So you concede that most of the commandments are not about personal responsibility. Great!

The divine are universal and are for the individual to be a better person. Not idolatry, nor preference and most definitely not to separate people.

What about the commandments that require separating people?

I did not invent the concept of personal responsibility. I helped you learn what the term was.

You still haven't done that. And I didn't say you invented the concept. I wrote (quite specifically) that you invented it as a motivating factor.

All personal responsibility is a personal choice.

Not a definition, just a statement of identity without definition.

All commandments are of choice. Even the mitzvahs. The good keep the rules by choice, the mitzvahs are religious opinion even if many are actually good wisdom, while others are rude and corrupt.

So bad people keep the rules for another reason?

I did a random look up combining my scope of rational with the term commandments.

and you stumbled on brainy.com? LOL. The website no longer exists.

I did not consider it authority.

So then why quote it as if it has any value?

I already comprehended the fact that the commandments and basis of the torah are for people to learn and apply "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY".

No, you didn't "comprehend" that -- you innovated that.

I comprehend the dialogue and you want to find and use authority as your premise.

there was no dialogue. Maybe use words you know.

I changed nothing except to bold a term (2 words)

No, you deleted a section.

The people may speak the language but hebrew is not the people.

No one said it is. You are very confused.

NO. I am from the country that pays the bills and will not enforce the UN resolutions expressing illegal occupation.

Argentina is against the illegal occupation that israel is imposing

What do those 2 statements have to do with each other?

 

[rosends]

Lots of people believe torah is from god. I asked if you had a word written by god.

Yes, I do. The Torah. Just like what you quoted.

I was very succinct as most every religious material claims or makes claims to be from god.

and your "succinct" response is your belief that nothing is from God.

The oops is you were mistaken.

Except I showed your mistake and you have done nothing but make empty claims.

But I did not attack you nor want too. I am well aware that you want to be an authority before wanting to learn from anyone except your chosen guidance.

Actually, I am an authority because I have been learning from earlier authorities. Sort fo the way a mechanic learns about cars by learning with an established mechanic.

No, i am consistent and aware of exactly what I am doing. Even if I make mistakes, I can accept making an error and move on.

And you consistently make mistakes.

Be kind first, stop trying to fight me.

I'm not fighting anyone. Stop telling me what I'm doing.

 

[Bthoth]

but I'm not divine and "honesty" isn't the determinant of divinity.

I know that you're not divine and I gave an example of the hope...... to be honest before belief.

You denied there is anything divine. Now you are saying you believe in God?

NO, that is your wording. As usual you dance with new steps. Always have just not your model.

I'm glad you see that! When you learn English, let me know.

I try to avoid your punches and jabs

You still haven't explained what that means to you or why you think it drives the commandments' observance.

Sure I did, but you dont read so well. To help people be better, civil.

so if something doesn't make sense to you, you ignore it. Understood -- you see yourself as the center.

I am responding. I am not like you, trying to be an authority.

So you concede that most of the commandments are not about personal responsibility. Great!

Thanks..... as some of the mitzvah are quite rude, cruel and even just wrong.

What about the commandments that require separating people?

They are as stupid........as idolatry for jerusalem

You still haven't done that. And I didn't say you invented the concept. I wrote (quite specifically) that you invented it as a motivating factor.

Sure I have...... and YES the motivating factor is civility which requires personal responsibility of each and every practitioner.

Not a definition, just a statement of identity without definition.

The term implies the choice, 'personal' and then the act 'responsibility'
You know how to argue. Why not write and contribute to your belief system using the method of talmud.

So bad people keep the rules for another reason?

Cant be bad if following the rules (commandments). The mitzvah are not commandments with any divinity which is why so many are ignored.

So then why quote it as if it has any value?

Because i wanted to see what would come up. I am well aware that I could not be the first to comprehend that the commandments and torah itself, were created to help people with personal responsibility

No, you didn't "comprehend" that -- you innovated that.

Now you are telling me what I think. when I have written it many times before any brainy website was quoted

there was no dialogue. Maybe use words you know.

You cant stop throwing punches can you?

No, you deleted a section.

I am not copying every website and every line. It would be as stupid as copying the whole chapter of Ezek 22 just to expose the dross as ending real bad. I would rather help the few willing to grow up.

No one said it is. You are very confused.

I am not the one confused about the difference.

What do those 2 statements have to do with each other?

I am not from argentina.

I should have asked why did you impose another stupid tangent and ask if I was from argentina.

 

[Bthoth]

Yes, I do. The Torah. Just like what you quoted.

And i provided information, that is accepted by the rabbinical community that evidenced that your claim is wrong.

Torah was not written by god. NOT EVEN A SINGLE WORD!

and your "succinct" response is your belief that nothing is from God.

The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use.

Except I showed your mistake and you have done nothing but make empty claims.

Most of your comments are empty and do nothing for no one. Except you are trying to leverage yourself as an authority.

Actually, I am an authority because I have been learning from earlier authorities. Sort fo the way a mechanic learns about cars by learning with an established mechanic.

and like horse and carrage to electric vehicles, the old end up obsolete.

But thank you for confirming your intent of establishing yourSELF....""Actually, I am an authority""

And you consistently make mistakes.

Thank you.. I know and willing to grow up.

Can you?

I'm not fighting anyone. Stop telling me what I'm doing.

Most everything that you write is with clinched fist.

Please stop

 

[rosends]

Sure I did, but you dont read so well. To help people be better, civil.

that would be communal responsibility.

I am responding. I am not like you, trying to be an authority.

You claimed that something made sense. That puts you in the center of deciding what makes sense.

Thanks..... as some of the mitzvah are quite rude, cruel and even just wrong.

So you ignore the ones YOU think are bad. Again, that puts you at the center.

Sure I have...... and YES the motivating factor is civility which requires personal responsibility of each and every practitioner.

So YOU believe

You know how to argue. Why not write and contribute to your belief system using the method of talmud.

Who says I'm not?

Cant be bad if following the rules (commandments). The mitzvah are not commandments with any divinity which is why so many are ignored.

So the text which calls them commandments is wrong, and yet you pick from it what you like.

Now you are telling me what I think. when I have written it many times before any brainy website was quoted

You just proved my point, thanks.

I am not copying every website and every line. It would be as stupid as copying the whole chapter of Ezek 22 just to expose the dross as ending real bad. I would rather help the few willing to grow up.

So now you admit to changing the text by deleting a section. And yet in 465 you wrote, "I changed nothing except to bold a term (2 words)".

I am not from argentina.

I should have asked why did you impose another stupid tangent and ask if I was from argentina.

You didn't look at the link I provided I guess. Your loss. See -- if you would address your ignorance, you would understand better.

 

[rosends]

And i provided information, that is accepted by the rabbinical community that evidenced that your claim is wrong.

No, you quoted a line which said the opposite -- "Rabbinic tradition's understanding is that all of the teachings found in the Torah (both written and oral) were given by their God through the prophet Moses". How does that provide any information saying that my claim to the divinity of the text is wrong?

Torah was not written by god. NOT EVEN A SINGLE WORD!

So you believe.

The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use.

I "use a model" that says the universe isn't by God? Show me.

""Actually, I am an authority""

You're welcome! A lot of people are authorites in particular areas. You reject them all i guess.

Can you?

I'll let you know when I make a mistake.

Most everything that you write is with clinched fist.

Please stop

I don't even know what a "clinched fist" is and don't think I'd be able to type with one, so, no, wrong again.

 

[Bthoth]

that would be communal responsibility.

Isn't that the idea that many wish of israel? Communal / equal application of the rules within the whole of the community?

Mankind can do the same if given the chance.

You claimed that something made sense. That puts you in the center of deciding what makes sense.

Sure...... I am responsible for making sense for my own actions. Each person will need to understand before becoming a community of civil society. I want to participate. And likewise, I trust that people are capable if given a chance to think for themselves with quality material.

So you ignore the ones YOU think are bad. Again, that puts you at the center.

Yes I do ignore the stupid mitzvahs and by my own choice, thank you very much. I do not need an authority to tell me how to think.

So YOU believe

Yes...."the motivating factor is civility which requires personal responsibility of each and every practitioner."

Who says I'm not?

Not me. I made a quality direction of action.

So the text which calls them commandments is wrong, and yet you pick from it what you like.

Mitzvah are religious and antiquated observance for the most part. And yes, i do by choice ignore most of them.

Just like most people on the earth including israelis.

You just proved my point, thanks.

That i comprehended what the commandments and torah are for before even looking up an outside sourse.

YES..... that was and is the point.

So now you admit to changing the text by deleting a section. And yet in 465 you wrote, "I changed nothing except to bold a term (2 words)".

I did not change anything. I admitting that I did not copy everything of the website

You didn't look at the link I provided I guess. Your loss. See -- if you would address your ignorance, you would understand better.

There you go again, trying to impose another insult.

Again, just stop.

Try to be civil.

 

[Bthoth]

No, you quoted a line which said the opposite -- "Rabbinic tradition's understanding is that all of the teachings found in the Torah (both written and oral) were given by their God through the prophet Moses". How does that provide any information saying that my claim to the divinity of the text is wrong?

I asked if you had any word(s) written by god. You said yes Torah and of course, i offered evidence to the contrary.

So you believe.

Thank you. Heck moses didn't even write torah but I can accept that since he came from egypt that He was instrumental in teaching the followers.

I "use a model" that says the universe isn't by God? Show me.

Bthoth said:
""The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use.""
_______________________
That is an example of how you twist up comments.

You're welcome! A lot of people are authorites in particular areas. You reject them all i guess.

You guess far more than most.

I'll let you know when I make a mistake.

Fighting me and then trying to claim being an authority, is most definitely your mistake.

 

[rosends]

I asked if you had any word(s) written by god. You said yes Torah and of course, i offered evidence to the contrary.

"evidence"? No, not really. Just your insistence that "NOT EVEN A SINGLE WORD" was written by God. That's not evidence. That's petulance.

Bthoth said:
""The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use.""
_______________________
That is an example of how you twist up comments.

by quoting you directly?

Fighting me and then trying to claim being an authority, is most definitely your mistake.

show me how my claim to being an authority about Judaism is a mistake.

 

[Eddi]

Genesis 32:28

28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.



Does Genetics Only Determine Who Israel Is?

Do you Beleive that there is a Spiritual Israel?

Do you agree that Elohim/God has Ordained Spiritual Israel and Fleshly Israel?

What does it mean to have the Israeli Trait of Power With Elohim/God and With Men?​

It's a small country in the Middle East

It's been in the news a lot lately

 

[Bthoth]

"evidence"? No, not really. Just your insistence that "NOT EVEN A SINGLE WORD" was written by God. That's not evidence. That's petulance.

OK..... I am still a young soul.

But my observance (specifically: the question to you) was, do you have any evidence?

I was just as right as I am now. You have confirmed: ""evidence"? No, not really."

by quoting you directly?

No your reply was not quoting me. I quoted what i wrote to help you try again.

show me how my claim to being an authority about Judaism is a mistake.

By your lack of comprehension that the commandments and / or torah is and was to assist with 'personal responsibility' (living moral life by choice)

I am not going to debate whether you have studied under your preferred mentors. That is/was your choice.


And like all personal responsibility and moral obligation, the good choose to do what is right.

NONE are chosen to be good by even rabbi or any god. The good choose to keep the rules..

That last line will and does completely expose a disagreement with many religious beliefs/teachings.

There is no authority of any religious leadership to tell a person that they are incapable. That style of leadership are the bad and perfectly expose the bias of the obsolete.

 

[rosends]

OK..... I am still a young soul.

But my observance (specifically: the question to you) was, do you have any evidence?

I was just as right as I am now. You have confirmed: ""evidence"? No, not really."

the difference is, I never claimed to have any evidence. You did.

No your reply was not quoting me. I quoted what i wrote to help you try again.

in post 470 you wrote, "The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use." I quoted you in 472. Why do you claim that that's not true?

By your lack of comprehension that the commandments and / or torah is and was to assist with 'personal responsibility' (living moral life by choice)

lack of acceptance of your opinion. You aren't an authority.

And like all personal responsibility and moral obligation, the good choose to do what is right.

NONE are chosen to be good by even rabbi or any god. The good choose to keep the rules..

That last line will and does completely expose a disagreement with many religious beliefs/teachings.

There is no authority of any religious leadership to tell a person that they are incapable. That style of leadership are the bad and perfectly expose the bias of the obsolete.

none of this addresses what I wrote. It is useless to continue this if you are going to ignore what I write and just jump to other topics.

 

[Bthoth]

the difference is, I never claimed to have any evidence. You did.

I did not claim. I asked the query.

It follows the very path of inquiring of DIVINITY. As nothing of the dialogue is divine or by a god. As the claims are just opinion by human beings.

in post 470 you wrote, "The whole universe is by god, just not in the model that you use." I quoted you in 472. Why do you claim that that's not true?

You replied:
rosends said:
I "use a model" that says the universe isn't by God? Show me"

So i re-posted by quoting what I wrote to give you a chance to reply

lack of acceptance of your opinion.

You do not have to accept my opinion.

You aren't an authority.

I never said that I was, but you do constantly.

none of this addresses what I wrote. It is useless to continue this if you are going to ignore what I write and just jump to other topics.

Quite the contrary. I am very direct and succinct and you rewrite my comments with funny twisting of terms.

Just as you did above

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Fighting me and then trying to claim being an authority, is most definitely your mistake.

There is no question that he is an authority on Jewish law and you are not.

 

[Bthoth]

There is no question that he is an authority on Jewish law and you are not.

So Rosends is a He? I did not know that.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

So Rosends is a He? I did not know that.

Did you think you were talking to a woman?

 

[rosends]

I did not claim. I asked the query.

Post 474, you wrote " i offered evidence to the contrary"
That's not a query that's a claim of proof.

I never said that I was, but you do constantly.

So your statement "NONE are chosen to be good by even rabbi or any god. The good choose to keep the rules.." is worthless

Quite the contrary. I am very direct and succinct and you rewrite my comments with funny twisting of terms.

I quote you directly but you don't keep track of what you say.

 

[Bthoth]

Did you think you were talking to a woman?

I am western, I have an aunt named Rose.

But Yes, to answer your question.