Why did god create homosexuality?

[Ken Brown]

No, I just brought up bonobo monkeys because you said that is was rare for animals to engage in same-sex behavior.

And no, I am not trying to justify homosexuality just because animals do it, but because monogamous, same-sex behavior is frequently beneficial for both people, and attempting abstinence for life, whether for homosexuals, or for heterosexuals, frequently causes serious physical, and emotional problems.

You use the word "abnormal" a lot, but it is very abnormal for people to practice abstinence for life. So, other than religious based abstinence for life, which often causes serious physical, and emotional problems even for religiously motivated people, you do not have any alternatives for homosexuals. Many things are abnormal, but are beneficial, such as having a high IQ, or being exceptionally good at a sport.

Hi Agnostic, my point about the supposed 1500 animal species that exibit homosexual tendencies, is that they are just a drop in the bucket when you look at ALL animal species. Sure, you are going to find examples of those 1500 animal species, but in relation to ALL of the animal species, one could rightly argue that the "norm" within the animal world is heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex.

Concerning the "abstinence" issue, that really should not come into play if one repents from their homosexual lifestyle, and becomes a heterosexual. Many desires and tendencies found under the control of our flesh can be overcome, but for those desires and tendencies to be overcome, a person MUST recognize those desires and tendencies are wrong. Look, there have been full blown homosexuals that have become heterosexuals as evidenced by what the Apostle Paul said:

1Co 6:9-11
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
(10) nor covetous, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor abusive people, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
(11) And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Master Yeshua and by the Spirit of our Elohim.

So Agnostic, you can be a homosexual or a sodomite and overcome that sin. It just takes a certain faith and belief that one cannot be deceived into thinking they can remain in that sin, and then be allowed entrance into Elohim's Kingdom. Once you are fully convinced that you cannot be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, covetousness, thievery, drunkenness, abusiveness, or swindling can be actively continued in, then one can repent of those sins, and be saved. It just takes making up one's mind to love the Truth and be saved, and come out FROM those evil and sinful ways. KB

 

[Penumbra]

Concerning the "abstinence" issue, that really should not come into play if one repents from their homosexual lifestyle, and becomes a heterosexual. Many desires and tendencies found under the control of our flesh can be overcome, but for those desires and tendencies to be overcome, a person MUST recognize those desires and tendencies are wrong. Look, there have been full blown homosexuals that have become heterosexuals as evidenced by what the Apostle Paul said:

1Co 6:9-11
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
(10) nor covetous, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor abusive people, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
(11) And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Master Yeshua and by the Spirit of our Elohim.

So Agnostic, you can be a homosexual or a sodomite and overcome that sin. It just takes a certain faith and belief that one cannot be deceived into thinking they can remain in that sin, and then be allowed entrance into Elohim's Kingdom. Once you are fully convinced that you cannot be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, covetousness, thievery, drunkenness, abusiveness, or swindling can be actively continued in, then one can repent of those sins, and be saved. It just takes making up one's mind to love the Truth and be saved, and come out FROM those evil and sinful ways. KB

Funny, because Exodus International just ceased operations. Exodus was among the first, and the largest, "ex-gay" ministries. It was a large nonprofit Christian group that sought to help gay Christians stop being gay, and after nearly forty years of operations, they shut down and apologized.

Your post is factually inaccurate, and your only reference is a non-expert on the subject from 2,000 years ago that believed the world was going to end. Considerable research has shown sexual orientation cannot be meaningfully changed on any consistent basis, to the point where attempting to do so is illegal in some civilized areas. (Nor are there any sane ethical reasons against homosexuality in and of itself as to why changing it should even be attempted.) Even this religious organization tried unsuccessfully for nearly four decades to "fix" gay people, starting with the notion that reparative therapy was useful, then shifting to the notion that sexuality cannot be changed but just coped with, and then finally the board of directors deciding unanimously to shut down and apologize.

The (now-former) president of Exodus:
"I am sorry for the pain and hurt many of you have experienced," said Chambers. "I am sorry that some of you spent years working through the shame and guilt you felt when your attractions didn't change. I am sorry we promoted sexual orientation change efforts and reparative theories about sexual orientation that stigmatized parents.
"I am sorry that there were times I didn't stand up to people publicly 'on my side' who called you names like sodomite - or worse. ... I am sorry that when I celebrated a person coming to Christ and surrendering their sexuality to Him that I callously celebrated the end of relationships that broke your heart."
Source

There are a lot of things about that man I don't agree with at all, but this was admirable. In my view, it would be nice if more Christians stepped away from some of their sins like he has so that they can stop harming people. I think with enough education, compassion, and unbaised review of the situation, they can overcome their issues and mistakes and have a more well-informed view of the situation.

 

[Agnostic75]

Hi Agnostic, my point about the supposed 1500 animal species that exibit homosexual tendencies, is that they are just a drop in the bucket when you look at ALL animal species. Sure, you are going to find examples of those 1500 animal species, but in relation to ALL of the animal species, one could rightly argue that the "norm" within the animal world is heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex.

But how many times do I have to tell you that what is normal is not necessarily the best thing. An IQ of 100 is normal, but most people would rather have a higher IQ than that. No athlete wants to be normal. They want to be much better than normal.

Bi-sexuality works well for bonobo monkeys. Why is that? Why did God make them that way?

Why did dinosaurs kill each other? It couldn't have been because of the supposed fall of man since dinosaurs lived long before humans existed. Of course, even the majority of Christian biologists know that macro evolution is true. Macro evolution shows that all life forms on earth are related, and that even if two people named Adam and Eve lived long ago, they and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor.

Concerning the "abstinence" issue, that really should not come into play if one repents from their homosexual lifestyle and becomes a heterosexual.

You have confirmed what I said that the only arguments that you really have against homosexuality are religious arguments.

Most homosexuals who gave up homosexuality, most of them for religious reasons, have admitted that some of the old urges are still there, and are often still strong. Most of them did not become heterosexuals, with primarily heterosexual sexual urges, they just stopped engaging in same-sex behavior, and many of them developed serious physical, and emotional problems as a result.

Many desires and tendencies found under the control of our flesh can be overcome, but for those desires and tendencies to be overcome, a person MUST recognize those desires and tendencies are wrong. Look, there have been full blown homosexuals that have become heterosexuals as evidenced by what the Apostle Paul said:

1Co 6:9-11

(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
(10) nor covetous, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor abusive people, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
(11) And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Master Yeshua and by the Spirit of our Elohim.

So Agnostic, you can be a homosexual or a sodomite and overcome that sin. It just takes a certain faith and belief that one cannot be deceived into thinking they can remain in that sin, and then be allowed entrance into Elohim's Kingdom. Once you are fully convinced that you cannot be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, covetousness, thievery, drunkenness, abusiveness, or swindling can be actively continued in, then one can repent of those sins, and be saved. It just takes making up one's mind to love the Truth and be saved, and come out FROM those evil and sinful ways.

All that you are doing is preaching. You cannot provide reasonable proof that God inspired any writings about same-sex behavior. Lots of Bible scholars know that the Bible contains at least a good number of forgeries, and interpolations. Even if Jesus, and Paul, said some things that are in the Bible, there is no way that we can be reasonably certain that they said everything that the Bible says that they said.

At New Bart Ehrman Interview on Bible Forgeries - YouTube, Bible scholar, author and former Christian Dr. Bart Ehrman discusses forgeries in the Bible.

In Explosive New Book FORGED, Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman Exposes Deceptive and Misleading Forgeries in the New Testament

In Explosive New Book FORGED, Bible Scholar Bart Ehrman Exposes Deceptive and Misleading Forgeries in the New Testament

Bart D. Ehrman, the New York Times bestselling author of Jesus, Interrupted and God’s Problem reveals which books in the Bible’s New Testament were not passed down by Jesus’s disciples, but were instead forged by other hands—and why this centuries-hidden scandal is far more significant than many scholars are willing to admit. Forged: Writing in the Name of God - Why the Bible's Authors Are Not Who We Think They Are

Bart Ehrman's book is only one of many books that show that the Bible contains a number of forgeries, and interpolations.

At http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/NTcanon.html, Bible scholar Dr. Richard Carrier has an article on the formation of the New Testament Canon. Following are some excerpts:

Contrary to common belief, there was never a one-time, truly universal decision as to which books should be included in the Bible. It took over a century of the proliferation of numerous writings before anyone even bothered to start picking and choosing, and then it was largely a cumulative, individual and happenstance event, guided by chance and prejudice more than objective and scholarly research, until priests and academics began pronouncing what was authoritative and holy, and even they were not unanimous. Every church had its favored books, and since there was nothing like a clearly-defined orthodoxy until the 4th century, there were in fact many simultaneous literary traditions. The illusion that it was otherwise is created by the fact that the church that came out on top simply preserved texts in its favor and destroyed or let vanish opposing documents. Hence what we call "orthodoxy" is simply "the church that won."

Astonishingly, the story isn't even that simple: for the Catholic church centered in Rome never had any extensive control over the Eastern churches, which were in turn divided even among themselves, with Ethiopian and Coptic and Syrian and Byzantine and Armenian canons all riding side-by-side with each other and with the Western Catholic canon, which itself was never perfectly settled until the 15th century at the earliest, although it was essentially established by the middle of the 4th century. Indeed, the current Catholic Bible is largely accepted as canonical from fatigue: the details are so ancient and convoluted that it is easier to simply accept an ancient and enduring tradition than to bother actually questioning its merit. This is further secured by the fact that the long habit of time has dictated the status of the texts: favored books have been more scrupulously preserved and survive in more copies than unfavored books, such that even if some unfavored books should happen to be earlier and more authoritative, in many cases we are no longer able to reconstruct them with any accuracy. To make matters worse, we know of some very early books that simply did not survive at all (the most astonishing example is Paul's earlier Epistle to the Colossians, cf. Col. 4:16), and have recently discovered the very ancient fragments of others that we never knew existed, because no one had even mentioned them.

Consequently, to tell the story of how the Bible came to be requires an essay of some length, organized into sections of roughly chronological order. This is a summary of the consensus of scholars on the formation of the New Testament, drawn from Bruce Metzger's far more detailed survey of the subject, The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance (Clarendon, 1987). All numbers in parentheses followed by "M" are pages in this text. I must excuse the tediousness of this essay--for the subject matter is inescapably complex and confusing. But I have condensed the material of Metzger's 300+ pages to less than 30 pages, added some of my own observations, and emphasized those facts most relevant to secularists and seekers.

Do you believe that the story of Adam and Eve is literally true, that a global flood occurred, and that the earth is young?

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to Ken Brown: As far as homosexuals changing into heterosexuals is concerned, consider the following:

Conversion therapy advocate issues formal apology, renounces “ex-gay” past - Salon.com

John Paulk says in a statement that he was never "cured" of being gay and apologizes for harming the LGBT community.

Former Exodus International chairman and conversion therapy “success story” John Paulk has written a formal statement of apology for his role in promoting Focus on the Family’s “ex-gay” ministry and for any harm his actions may have done to other gays and lesbians.

In the letter, Paulk admits that “many things” in his life changed during his time at Focus on the Family, though his sexual orientation did not.

He said:

So in 2003, I left the public ministry and gave up my role as a spokesman for the “ex-gay movement.” I began a new journey. In the decade since, my beliefs have changed. Today, I do not consider myself “ex-gay” and I no longer support or promote the movement. Please allow me to be clear: I do not believe that reparative therapy changes sexual orientation; in fact, it does great harm to many people. I know that countless people were harmed by things I said and did in the past. Parents, families, and their loved ones were negatively impacted by the notion of reparative therapy and the message of change. I am truly, truly sorry for the pain I have caused. From the bottom of my heart I wish I could take back my words and actions that caused anger, depression, guilt and hopelessness. In their place I want to extend love, hope, tenderness, joy and the truth that gay people are loved by God."

So Paulk admitted that he lied about his conversion to heterosexuality. Who knows how many more supposedly ex-gay Christians have lied?

As far as repentance is concerned, many Christian homosexuals have repented, but have still developed serious physical, and emotional problems when they stopped engaging in same-sex behavior, and have been unable to develop primarily heterosexual urges.

Ex-gay movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The "ex-gay" movement relies on the involvement of individuals who formerly identified themselves to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual but no longer do; these individuals may either claim that they have eliminated their attraction to the same sex altogether or simply that they abstain from acting on such attraction. There have been various scandals related to this movement, including some self-claimed ex-gays having been found in same-sex relationships despite having denied this, as well as controversies over gay minors being forced to go to ex-gay camps against their will, and over admissions by organizations related to the movement that conversion therapy does not work.

Please note "admissions by organizations related to the [ex-gay] movement that conversions therapy does not work."

The Lies and Dangers of Efforts to Change Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity | Resources | Human Rights Campaign

Psychiatrist Dr. L. Spitzer, who once offered a study on reparative therapy, has since denounced the practice and has apologized for endorsing the practice. Read more here.

“Herman Cain’s opinion that being gay is a choice has no basis in current scientific thinking,” said Dr. Jack Drescher, MD, a Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and a member of the DSM-5 Workgroup on Sexual and Gender Identity Disorders. “Not only is homosexuality ‘not a choice,’ as most efforts to try and change a person's sexual orientation fail, but some attempts to change can cause harm and damage to an individual’s well-being.”

In 2007, a task force of the American Psychological Association undertook a thorough review of the existing research on the efficacy of reparative therapy. Their report noted that there was very little methodologically sound research on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCEs) and that the "results of scientifically valid research indicate that it is unlikely that individuals will be able to reduce same-sex attractions or increase other-sex sexual attractions through SOCE." In addition, the task force found that "there are no methodologically sound studies of recent SOCE that would enable the task force to make a definitive statement about whether or not recent SOCE is safe or harmful and for whom." Read the full report.

In short, there is clear evidence that reparative therapy does not work, and some significant evidence that it is also harmful to LGBT people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

The American Psychiatric Association has condemned psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation.

The highest-profile contemporary advocates of conversion therapy tend to be fundamentalist Christian groups and other right-wing religious organizations. The main organization advocating secular forms of conversion therapy is the National Association for Research & Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH), which often partners with religious groups. Psychologist Douglas Haldeman writes that conversion therapy comprises efforts by mental health professionals and pastoral care providers to convert lesbians and gay men to heterosexuality by techniques including aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals," and "nausea-inducing drugs...administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli," masturbatory reconditioning, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions, such as "prayer and group support and pressure."

American medical and scientific organizations have expressed concern over conversion therapy and consider it potentially harmful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

In 2012, the Pan American Health Organization (the North and South American branch of the World Health Organization) released a statement cautioning against services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientations as they lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, and noted that the global scientific and professional consensus is that homosexuality is a normal and natural variation of human sexuality and cannot be regarded as a pathological condition.

Now of course, you can find some stories where homosexuals have successfully become heterosexuals, but very few, if any of those stories can be backed up with clinical research, and it is a fact that reparative therapy has harmed many people, and it is a fact that many people within the ex-gay movement have admitted that reparative therapy does not work. On very rare, very unusual occasions, a homosexual may develop primarily heterosexual urges, but that would be very rare, and almost impossible to reasonably prove.

 

[dust1n]

Just curious, is there a Bible verse in which something is claimed not to be made by God?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Just curious, is there a Bible verse in which something is claimed not to be made by God?

Sadly there is none as according to the Bible it is reiterated that god created everything including the evil.

 

[Curious George]

Hi Agnostic, my point about the supposed 1500 animal species that exibit homosexual tendencies, is that they are just a drop in the bucket when you look at ALL animal species. Sure, you are going to find examples of those 1500 animal species, but in relation to ALL of the animal species, one could rightly argue that the "norm" within the animal world is heterosexual sex, not homosexual sex.

Concerning the "abstinence" issue, that really should not come into play if one repents from their homosexual lifestyle, and becomes a heterosexual. Many desires and tendencies found under the control of our flesh can be overcome, but for those desires and tendencies to be overcome, a person MUST recognize those desires and tendencies are wrong. Look, there have been full blown homosexuals that have become heterosexuals as evidenced by what the Apostle Paul said:

1Co 6:9-11
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of Elohim? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
(10) nor covetous, nor thieves, nor drunkards, nor abusive people, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of Elohim.
(11) And such were some of you! But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Master Yeshua and by the Spirit of our Elohim.

So Agnostic, you can be a homosexual or a sodomite and overcome that sin. It just takes a certain faith and belief that one cannot be deceived into thinking they can remain in that sin, and then be allowed entrance into Elohim's Kingdom. Once you are fully convinced that you cannot be deceived into thinking that fornication, idolatry, adultery, homosexuality, sodomy, covetousness, thievery, drunkenness, abusiveness, or swindling can be actively continued in, then one can repent of those sins, and be saved. It just takes making up one's mind to love the Truth and be saved, and come out FROM those evil and sinful ways. KB

Your logic about the "animal kingdom" is flawed for that some species demonstrate homosexual behavior only gives credence to the fact that homosexuality in humans is natural since homosexuality in humans does occur, that homosexual behaviors do not occur in some animals only means that in this species homosexuality does not occur. Whereas that homosexuality does occur in a large grouping of animals indicates that such behavior is natural in some species. While this does not specifically mean that it is natural in humans it is not too much of a leap to assume that homosexuality is natural for the species which homosexual tendencies occur. Since humans are a species where homosexuality occurs then we should assume that it is natural.

However, I really wrote to you to criticize your interpretation of the Bible. Many versions of 1 Corinthians 9 exist in English. Your choice to assume that the word homosexual actually appears is foolish. If you read other versions and original text then you will see that sexual immorality is really the target in this verse. If you believe that homosexuality is immoral I guess that is your deal. However I would suggest that homosexuality might be immoral for you but could be perfectly moral for another. For you to engage in homosexuality you would need to exert sexual feelings based on power and control and fulfilling your base desire of getting your rocks off. The same would be true of a homosexual engaging in sex with someone of the opposite sex. The only people who can really have it both ways are bisexuals. I would really suggest you read Job. Ultimately, you cannot know another persons life, only your own. seeking to judge others or speak for God is more thoroughly anti Christian according to the Bible than homosexuality even with your biblical distortions. if you wish to have meaningful conversation about interpretation of the Bible you are going to have to educate yourself on what the Bible really says, and not just what your one translation says. If you wish to condemn homosexuality based solely on your own perspective, experience, and Bible then you are either naive, ignorant, or need to sort out some issues. I cannot fathom how you think telling others to not act upon love is righteous, Christian, or living in accordance with the Bible (even your version of the Bible).

 

[Agnostic75]

Message to Ken Brown: Homosexuals do generally have more physical and emotional problems than heterosexuals do, but not nearly as many as are often claimed by some conservative Christians. The majority of homosexuals in the U.S. (80%) do not have HIV, are not alcoholics, are not drugs abusers, and are not pedophiles. Research has shown that lesbians are slightly less promiscuous than heterosexual women are, that domestic violence is worse for heterosexual couples than it is for homosexual couples, that children who are raised by lesbians are generally well-adjusted, that about half of homosexuals in the U.S. are monogamous, and that in the U.S., Great Britain, and Denmark, homosexual couples stay together longer than heterosexual couples do.

Regarding health statistics, if only monogamous homosexuals were studied, which is about half of homosexuals, the medical problems would be much less, probably about the same as for heterosexuals.

If a God exists, and created life on earth, and opposes homosexuality, it is doubtful that he would have created homosexuality in over 1500 species of animals, and birds, and caused almost all bonobo monkeys to be bi-sexual, thereby giving many people the impression that he does not have any problems with homosexuality.

Homosexuality among humans, and other animals, is better described by the majority of professionals as a variation, not as an abnormality.

 

[Ken Brown]

Message to Ken Brown: As far as homosexuals changing into heterosexuals is concerned, consider the following:

Conversion therapy advocate issues formal apology, renounces “ex-gay” past - Salon.com

So Paulk admitted that he lied about his conversion to heterosexuality. Who knows how many more supposedly ex-gay Christians have lied?

As far as repentance is concerned, many Christian homosexuals have repented, but have still developed serious physical, and emotional problems when they stopped engaging in same-sex behavior, and have been unable to develop primarily heterosexual urges.

Ex-gay movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Please note "admissions by organizations related to the [ex-gay] movement that conversions therapy does not work."

The Lies and Dangers of Efforts to Change Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity | Resources | Human Rights Campaign

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy

Now of course, you can find some stories where homosexuals have successfully become heterosexuals, but very few, if any of those stories can be backed up with clinical research, and it is a fact that reparative therapy has harmed many people, and it is a fact that many people within the ex-gay movement have admitted that reparative therapy does not work. On very rare, very unusual occasions, a homosexual may develop primarily heterosexual urges, but that would be very rare, and almost impossible to reasonably prove.

Hi Agnostic 75, I am in no way endorsing the "reparative" therapy taught by traditional christians, for as you have pointed out, they fail in their efforts.

The message I promote not only applies to homosexuals, but to all sinners. The message I promote is that sin, all sin, even the sin of homosexuality, killed the Messiah, and caused Him to suffer. It is only when one comes to the knowledge of this Truth, that a true and lasting repentance from the sin which entangles sinners, can be overcome. Otherwise, it's a hopeless effort, and it's sort of like an alcholic or drug addict falling back into their addiction, as they have no power to defeat their addiction. The same goes for homosexuality, it is overpowering, and cannot be defeated unless something more powerful is used against it. And this is where the Power of Elohim comes in. The message of Yeshua's suffering BECAUSE of our sin, is the Power of Elohim, and that message is foolishness to those who are perishing IN their sins, as they have either not heard, or believed in that message:

1Co 1:18
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of Elohim.

You see Agnostic, Elohim consigned ALL to disobedience (Rom 11:32), so that He could show us mercy by allowing us to use that disobedience to slay our sacrifice, Yeshua. His Hope is that ALL will come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning this and be set free from their disobedience. To be sure, everyone started out in this creation to be against Elohim, but He, in His wisdom, is training and teaching mankind how to choose the good, and reject the evil, through the suffering of Messiah. Therefore, all sinners must repent if they truly want life and not death. It's pretty simple when you see it, and it is very powerful in moving sinners away from their sin, including the sin of homosexuality. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

Your logic about the "animal kingdom" is flawed for that some species demonstrate homosexual behavior only gives credence to the fact that homosexuality in humans is natural since homosexuality in humans does occur, that homosexual behaviors do not occur in some animals only means that in this species homosexuality does not occur. Whereas that homosexuality does occur in a large grouping of animals indicates that such behavior is natural in some species. While this does not specifically mean that it is natural in humans it is not too much of a leap to assume that homosexuality is natural for the species which homosexual tendencies occur. Since humans are a species where homosexuality occurs then we should assume that it is natural. OK, then by your logic, if in a species you have the natural occurrence of killing their young, or having sex with their offspring, would you then say that if this occurs within the human species you would consider it natural?

However, I really wrote to you to criticize your interpretation of the Bible. Many versions of 1 Corinthians 9 exist in English. Your choice to assume that the word homosexual actually appears is foolish. If you read other versions and original text then you will see that sexual immorality is really the target in this verse. If you believe that homosexuality is immoral I guess that is your deal. However I would suggest that homosexuality might be immoral for you but could be perfectly moral for another. For you to engage in homosexuality you would need to exert sexual feelings based on power and control and fulfilling your base desire of getting your rocks off. The same would be true of a homosexual engaging in sex with someone of the opposite sex. The only people who can really have it both ways are bisexuals. I would really suggest you read Job. Ultimately, you cannot know another persons life, only your own. seeking to judge others or speak for God is more thoroughly anti Christian according to the Bible than homosexuality even with your biblical distortions. if you wish to have meaningful conversation about interpretation of the Bible you are going to have to educate yourself on what the Bible really says, and not just what your one translation says. If you wish to condemn homosexuality based solely on your own perspective, experience, and Bible then you are either naive, ignorant, or need to sort out some issues. I cannot fathom how you think telling others to not act upon love is righteous, Christian, or living in accordance with the Bible (even your version of the Bible).

Hi Curious George, I would be very curious to see exactly which word/words you think were mistranslated in 1 Cor 9? Here is the verse with the Strongs numbers included from the KJV, and from the EMTV version I originally quoted from:

1Co 6:9 - KJV
(9) (G2228) KnowG1492 ye notG3756 thatG3754 the unrighteousG94 shall notG3756 inheritG2816 the kingdomG932 of God?G2316 Be notG3361 deceived:G4105 neitherG3777 fornicators,G4205 norG3777 idolaters,G1496 norG3777 adulterers,G3432 norG3777 effeminate,G3120 norG3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,G733

1Co 6:9 - EMTV
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

You see Curious George, you are mistaken in thinking that it is only referring to sexual immorality. The word "effeminate" is speaking of homosexuality, not sexual immorality, so you should re-think what you have written above, as you are in error. KB

 

[Agnostic75]

Hi Agnostic 75, I am in no way endorsing the "reparative" therapy taught by traditional christians, for as you have pointed out, they fail in their efforts.

The message I promote not only applies to homosexuals, but to all sinners. The message I promote is that sin, all sin, even the sin of homosexuality, killed the Messiah, and caused Him to suffer. It is only when one comes to the knowledge of this Truth, that a true and lasting repentance from the sin which entangles sinners, can be overcome. Otherwise, it's a hopeless effort, and it's sort of like an alcholic or drug addict falling back into their addiction, as they have no power to defeat their addiction. The same goes for homosexuality, it is overpowering, and cannot be defeated unless something more powerful is used against it. And this is where the Power of Elohim comes in. The message of Yeshua's suffering BECAUSE of our sin, is the Power of Elohim, and that message is foolishness to those who are perishing IN their sins, as they have either not heard, or believed in that message:

1Co 1:18
(18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of Elohim.

You see Agnostic, Elohim consigned ALL to disobedience (Rom 11:32), so that He could show us mercy by allowing us to use that disobedience to slay our sacrifice, Yeshua. His Hope is that ALL will come to a knowledge of the Truth concerning this and be set free from their disobedience. To be sure, everyone started out in this creation to be against Elohim, but He, in His wisdom, is training and teaching mankind how to choose the good, and reject the evil, through the suffering of Messiah. Therefore, all sinners must repent if they truly want life and not death. It's pretty simple when you see it, and it is very powerful in moving sinners away from their sin, including the sin of homosexuality.

But none of that is valid unless a God inspired the Bible, and a God probably did not inspire the Bible. Please buy the book that I mentioned by Dr. Bart Ehrman about Bible forgeries. The evidence is there if you can realize that you are not infallible, and that you might be wrong. You would not be able to preach to Dr. Ehrman since he was a Christian theologian for many years, and was a professor of religion. He would be able to teach you a lot of things about the Bible.

Men wrote the Bible, not God. Logically, written texts would be a very poor, and very inefficient means for a God to use as a primary way to communicate with humans. That is obvious since millions of people died without hearing the Gospel message, and since today, people waste years of their lives needlessly arguing about how to interpret the Bible. If a God disapproved of homosexuality, or anything else, the easiest, and most efficient way by far for him to let people know what he wants would be to show up tangibly, in person, in front of everyone in the world, and tell people how he wants them to live their lives. There would not be any advantage for a God to hide from people, not for God, and not for humans.

Anyway, I am not going to spend months debating religion. If you do not have any secular arguments against homosexuality, and it appears that you don't, I am not interested in your preaching, especially since I was a Christian for over 30 years, and I understand the Bible very well. And, Dr. Bart Ehrman understands the Bible far better than I do. If everyone debated the Bible like you do, all that any follower of any religion would do would be to quote whatever religious book that they accepted, and no one would ever get anywhere.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Hi tumbleweed41, you are not looking at the whole picture. Sodom's sin was "pride" or "arrogance," as they did not try to conceal their sin, but paraded it before all to openly see:

Isa 3:9
(9) For the look on their faces bears witness against them; they proclaim their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! For they have brought evil on themselves.

The men of Sodom were GREAT sinners, and all the men of Sodom, young and old came to Lot's house and wanted to have sex with Lot's male visitors:

Gen 19:4-5
(4) But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house.
(5) And they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."

These men of Sodom wanted to KNOW THEM. That phrase, "know them," is referring specifically to having SEX with them, and it doesn't have anything to do with a lack of hospitality. This was a GREAT SIN that the men of Sodom had, the sin of homosexuality:

Gen 13:13
(13) Now the men of Sodom were wicked, great sinners against Yahweh.

So I find it rather astonishing that the great sinning which Sodom proclaimed and didn't try to hide was the sin of unhospitality, instead of the sin of homosexuality. And look at what we have today, the great pride fest's of proclaiming the sin of homosexuality for all to see, instead of trying to hide their sin in the closet. KB

Looks to me that the inhospitable sin of rape is the issue.

 

[Curious George]

Hi Curious George, I would be very curious to see exactly which word/words you think were mistranslated in 1 Cor 9? Here is the verse with the Strongs numbers included from the KJV, and from the EMTV version I originally quoted from:

1Co 6:9 - KJV
(9) (G2228) KnowG1492 ye notG3756 thatG3754 the unrighteousG94 shall notG3756 inheritG2816 the kingdomG932 of God?G2316 Be notG3361 deceived:G4105 neitherG3777 fornicators,G4205 norG3777 idolaters,G1496 norG3777 adulterers,G3432 norG3777 effeminate,G3120 norG3777 abusers of themselves with mankind,G733

1Co 6:9 - EMTV
(9) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

You see Curious George, you are mistaken in thinking that it is only referring to sexual immorality. The word "effeminate" is speaking of homosexuality, not sexual immorality, so you should re-think what you have written above, as you are in error. KB

No, I do not need to rethink anything. and kjv does use effeminate, other versions use still different translations. However, the word arsenokenoites is a compound word that like the rest of Corinthians.6. Is an allusion to leviticus. The problem is then that leviticus doesn't actually condemn homosexuality either.

Furthermore, the term used would also only refers to males, so the extension to all homosexuality is certainly not merited. But culturally, what could Paul have been referring? but I am pleased to see that you have extended your argument to other translations. can you find the other translations and which English words they chose to replace pauls compound word? Why do u think one translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is better or more precise?

 

[Ken Brown]

Looks to me that the inhospitable sin of rape is the issue.

Hi tumbleweed41, sometimes looks are deceiving. The great sin that the men of Sodom wanted to commit, was the sin of homosexuality. Lot offered his virgin daughters to these men for them to rape, but they declined because the men of Sodom wanted to commit the sin of having sex (to know them) with the male visitors. If it was a matter of rape, the men of Sodom would have raped Lot's daughters. Their sin was the sin of homosexuality. KB

 

[Ken Brown]

No, I do not need to rethink anything. and kjv does use effeminate, other versions use still different translations. However, the word arsenokenoites is a compound word that like the rest of Corinthians.6. Is an allusion to leviticus. The problem is then that leviticus doesn't actually condemn homosexuality either.

Furthermore, the term used would also only refers to males, so the extension to all homosexuality is certainly not merited. But culturally, what could Paul have been referring? but I am pleased to see that you have extended your argument to other translations. can you find the other translations and which English words they chose to replace pauls compound word? Why do u think one translation of 1 Corinthians 6:9 is better or more precise?

Hi Curious George, no, you are trying to blurr the issue. The word that Paul used in 1 Cor 6:9 for "effeminate" has this meaning in Strongs:

G3120
μαλακός
malakos
mal-ak-os'
Of uncertain affinity; soft, that is, fine (clothing); figuratively a catamite: - effeminate, soft.

You need to look up and learn what a "catamite" was. It was a young boy groomed to have sex with an adult man. Shame on you for trying to twist and distort the meaning of that word. The Apostle Paul positively was referring to the sin of homosexuality when he used the Greek word "malakos". The word "homosexual" was not even invented or known at the time that Paul wrote, but the word used to describe the homosexual act was used and it was "malakos." Here is what Wikipedia has to say about this word:

Quote from Wikipedia:
In ancient Koine Greek, the word for effeminate is kinaidos (cinaedus in its Latinized form), or malakoi. A man "whose most salient feature was a supposedly "feminine" love of being sexually penetrated by other men." (Winkler, 1990).

This should put 1 Cor 6:9 to rest. KB

 

[dgirl1986]

It has always brought about great confusion as to why Yahweh/Allah created homosexuality. He permitted all of the world to exist and designed each aspect about it but why would he create a sin which cannot be avoided even on the biological level.
This is easily equated to god punishing people for being of a certain ethnicity. It seems illogical that a god would punish his own creation for his own design

This really starts with the assumption that he deemed it a sin when he created it. Maybe he didnt but the people of the time at which the bible was written did.

 

[Sha'irullah]

This really starts with the assumption that he deemed it a sin when he created it. Maybe he didnt but the people of the time at which the bible was written did.

Actually in Islam it is a sin while in Christianity it is an abomination. So the very state of being homosexual by orientation means god views you as damaged and irreparable.
Far worse then sin honestly. This leads to further reasoning and can conclude that Yahweh is not an all powerful deity which denies him the ability of omnipotence.

 

[Ken Brown]

But none of that is valid unless a God inspired the Bible, and a God probably did not inspire the Bible. Please buy the book that I mentioned by Dr. Bart Ehrman about Bible forgeries. The evidence is there if you can realize that you are not infallible, and that you might be wrong. You would not be able to preach to Dr. Ehrman since he was a Christian theologian for many years, and was a professor of religion. He would be able to teach you a lot of things about the Bible.

Men wrote the Bible, not God. Logically, written texts would be a very poor, and very inefficient means for a God to use as a primary way to communicate with humans. That is obvious since millions of people died without hearing the Gospel message, and since today, people waste years of their lives needlessly arguing about how to interpret the Bible. If a God disapproved of homosexuality, or anything else, the easiest, and most efficient way by far for him to let people know what he wants would be to show up tangibly, in person, in front of everyone in the world, and tell people how he wants them to live their lives. There would not be any advantage for a God to hide from people, not for God, and not for humans.

Anyway, I am not going to spend months debating religion. If you do not have any secular arguments against homosexuality, and it appears that you don't, I am not interested in your preaching, especially since I was a Christian for over 30 years, and I understand the Bible very well. And, Dr. Bart Ehrman understands the Bible far better than I do. If everyone debated the Bible like you do, all that any follower of any religion would do would be to quote whatever religious book that they accepted, and no one would ever get anywhere.

Hi Agnostic75, first, the great theologians during the time of the Messiah were well versed in quoting from the Torah and Prophets, but they knew nothing. They were hopelessly lost in their own imaginations and interpretations, just as Dr. Bart Ehrman is today. Dr. Bart Ehrman couldn't even win against the least of those who KNOW the Truth.

Now, concerning you posting on this thread, I find it rather astonishing that you would even come on this thread to debate "Why did god create homosexuality?", when you do not want to even discuss the religious merit that Elohim has against homosexuality. KB

 

[dgirl1986]

Actually in Islam it is a sin while in Christianity it is an abomination. So the very state of being homosexual by orientation means god views you as damaged and irreparable.
Far worse then sin honestly. This leads to further reasoning and can conclude that Yahweh is not an all powerful deity which denies him the ability of omnipotence.

If that is the case, I did the right thing leaving christianity years ago Then again the bible was penned by man so anything is possible really

 

[Sha'irullah]

If that is the case, I did the right thing leaving christianity years ago Then again the bible was penned by man so anything is possible really

As I say to other people. Read the Bible or read the Qur'an, they are both excellent works of fiction and inspiration. Just don't think they are anything remotely true.