Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[Augustus]

That isn't true. We have most Latin works, for example.
They are translations of the originals by Trinitarians.

Origen is the key to understanding the Arian v Trinitarian debate.
..and documents supporting Trintarians survive, and are polemic.
It is no coincidence.

You don’t have “most works”, that’s completely wrong.

You have a small percentage of what was written and deemed important enough to preserve in perpetuity.

Institutional backing of a text may increase the likelihood it survived, as someone had to pay for its survival, but that is very different from texts being destroyed.

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand both how texts were preserved and how much ability central authorities had to impose their orthodoxy over the entire world simply by issuing a command.

It doesn’t matter if they are plays, works of theology, philosophy or whatever most things don’t exist anymore and this has nothing to do with systematic destruction of texts.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You don’t have “most works”, that’s completely wrong.

Oh?
..then what is the apocrytha?
How come it was not all lost?

You have a small percentage of what was written and deemed important enough to preserve in perpetuity.

..I think you mean we..

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand both how texts were preserved and how much ability central authorities had to impose their orthodoxy over the entire world simply by issuing a command.

I do not misunderstand at all.
You are just sticking up for the validity of Roman History.
..and blaming it all on "natural loss", for the texts that are missing.

History is told differently depending on who is telling it, and that is a fact.
It is not that hard for authorities to hide the truth .. particularly when most people cannot read or write,
and the church is part of the state.
That is one reason why the Reformation happened .. people realised they were being manipulated.
..but they mostly did not know to what extent.

 

[idea]

It’s very relevant because prejudice is harmful to society. It has caused wars.

I agree prejudice is harmful, but false prophets are harmful. The Mormon prophet and Muslims I think too are prejudiced - homophobic, sexist, and racist - they excluded blacks from the priesthood, only allow men to lead, exclude lgbtq familiess etc. do not allow women the sane privileges as men.

Every group has a few truths or they would not exist. I think most group-think /tribalism is unhealthy, that no supposed "prophet" should be followed. Follow research, reason, "by the people" rather than unhealthy dictator/imperialist/prophets who often preach salvation only comes through them (many polygamous, pedophile, $$abusive "prophets" out there - soft-spoken, grooming, manipulation to a science.

 

[Brian2]

Humility is good, so Jesus humbling Himself before God is good.

Jesus is as good as His Father but that does not mean that Jesus IS His Father. There are two separate entities - Jesus and His Father - and that means that Jesus is not His Father.

Lying is not good, as if Jesus said that He is not as good as His Father, that would be lying, and if He meant that, that would be lying.
Even if you are doing it to be humble, lying is not good.

An image is not what it reflects. If you see your image in the mirror, is that you in the mirror?
Jesus is an image of His Fatrher, but He is not His Father.

Jesus did not tell an untruth. He was only humbling Himself before God when He said:

'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

Jesus did not mean He is not good, He only meant that compared to God He is not good, since the God the Father is greater than Him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Greater does not mean better. If I have more authority than you do or if I am more well known, I am greater than you are but that does not make me any better. So the Father can be greater without being and ,,,,,,, gooder,,,,,, than His Son.

I guess your wife is a cat lover. I have 8 cats now and people think that is a lot of cats, but that is the lowest number of cats I have had in 20 years. We used to have cats that had kittens and that is one reason we ended up with all these cats, since we kept some of the kittens. I have only one of those kittens left, Silky, and she is about 16 now. All the other cats I have I either bought or adopted since I lost my older cats.

These cats have literally saved my life because they give me a reason to go on living since my husband passed on. That GriefShare group at the Christian church is also helping me keep going. I am learning a lot about how Christians view God's attributes and how similar it is to the Baha'i view. The Bible verses that are cited in the workbook are no different from what is in the Baha'i Writings so I feel at home there. The people are also very loving and compassionate as Christians should be. The session next Saturday is about Heaven and that should be interesting.

I don't think my wife will become that much of a cat lover.
The grief group sounds helpful. Grief is something that should be shared I hear.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yeah, Muslims kept some Christian ideas, but rejected the most crucial, that being Jesus as savior. That’s a big dispute.

That's the story I heard from Christians, and I don't see any reason by reading what was written in the NT to doubt what they said. So, if I'm going to doubt something it is the NT itself, and I do.

The NT, to me, makes it clear, Jesus had to die to pay the sin debt owed to God. He was the spotless Lamb of God, the Lamb that was slain etc. And the NT goes into how we, supposedly, got into this sin debt. It was all because Adam disobeyed God. So, again, my complaint about the Baha'is is that they deny that and other important beliefs of Christianity and only keep the stuff they can use.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lying is not good, as if Jesus said that He is not as good as His Father, that would be lying, and if He meant that, that would be lying.
Even if you are doing it to be humble, lying is not good.

But that is not what Jesus said. Jesus did not say that He is not as good as His Father. Jesus only said not to call Him good, probably becaue Jesus wanted them to only call God good.

'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

Greater does not mean better. If I have more authority than you do or if I am more well known, I am greater than you are but that does not make me any better. So the Father can be greater without being and ,,,,,,, gooder,,,,,, than His Son.

No, greater doesn't mean better. It can mean more powerful, which God is. I cannot remember the verse, but I know all authority was given to Jesus, so Jesus has the same authority as God while He walked the earth.

I don't think my wife will become that much of a cat lover.
The grief group sounds helpful. Grief is something that should be shared I hear.

Probably nobody will be as much of a cat lover as me.

 

[Truthseeker]

I'm in my sixties and I've spent most of my life studying the religions of the world. I have studied the New Testament and church history, so I have certainly done my due diligence. It is probably not a good idea for you to assume someone is uneducated in a subject simply because they disagree with you.

The problem with examining what Jesus said about himself is that we don't really know what Jesus said. Jesus never wrote anything, nor are there any eyewitness accounts. All we have are collections of various legends about him -- far from reliable. I don't think Jesus said half of the things attributed to him.

What I said was not confrontational. I'm sorry you took it that way. I'm not a mind reader, so I wouldn't know what you have studied. The way you described it it was in terms of what the followers believe, not what the texts said, it appeared to me. Especially in the case of Christianity and Judaism. There are no texts in the Old Testament that say what Jesus was what you said there, in my opinion. You just said that the texts are unreliable, so I would think you would agree with that. Anyway, you expressed it in terms of what Christians say. I was just trying to encourage you to look at the texts themselves. It didn't sound like you came to your conclusion based on texts.

I wasn't following the whole conversation so maybe it was clearer earlier.

 

[Augustus]

Oh?
..then what is the apocrytha?
How come it was not all lost?

People preserved some texts that were deemed important enough. Remember some considered such texts canonical.

Note that the existence of non-canonical texts is strong evidence against your argument that the authorities could eradicate texts by fiat.

..I think you mean we

I didn’t, but it would mean the same thing so doesn’t really matter either way

I do not misunderstand at all.
You are just sticking up for the validity of Roman History.
..and blaming it all on "natural loss", for the texts that are missing

Then perhaps you can explain the process by which popular texts were destroyed across vast empires and even in domains that where the authorities in question had no jurisdiction.

I asked you before as it’s a pretty easy way to show the problems with your assumptions.

You chose to skip that bit though.

Some texts, in some places, at some times were destroyed by Christians, be they acting independently or based in law, but sporadic destruction of individual texts in specific regions doesn’t eradicate a popular text worldwide.

Scholars estimate we have around 10% of known ancient texts.

If you want to see a list of some texts that were lost, including Christian texts, and some that survived can have a look here in the contents section: Bibliotheca (Photius) - Wikipedia

Those are all texts that have been lost since the 9th C too, and not because they were systematically eradicated everywhere.

History is told differently depending on who is telling it, and that is a fact.
It is not that hard for authorities to hide the truth .. particularly when most people cannot read or write,
and the church is part of the state.
That is one reason why the Reformation happened .. people realised they were being manipulated.
..but they mostly did not know to what extent.

Conspiracy theories are popular because we like to think of a narrow, shadowy elite manipulating the masses to their will.

And, yes, it is that hard for an ancient empire without modern communication and transport technologies to “hide the truth” about well know ideas and texts that exist across vast areas including those outside their direct control.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Some texts, in some places, at some times were destroyed by Christians, be they acting independently or based in law, but sporadic destruction of individual texts in specific regions doesn’t eradicate a popular text worldwide.

The world was not "global" in the way it is now .. you are giving a false impression, by using terms
like "worldwide"..

Scholars estimate we have around 10% of known ancient texts.

That statistic has no bearing on what I am saying.
The Christian religion was strictly controlled in the past.
It was illegal to hold beliefs other than Trinitarian.

Claiming that this had no effect on what documents survived or were lost is unbelievable.

Conspiracy theories are popular because we like to think of a narrow, shadowy elite manipulating the masses to their will.

In the case of the history of Roman Christianity, it is not hard to see that that is exactly what DID happen.

And, yes, it is that hard for an ancient empire without modern communication and transport technologies to “hide the truth” about well know ideas and texts that exist across vast areas including those outside their direct control.

I don't really know what we are arguing about here .. it is too vague.
How come we have Origen's works in their entirety in Latin,
but not His original works in Greek?
Is it just a coincidernce that all his original works were ordered to be destroyed by a Roman Emperor?

 

[Brian2]

But that is not what Jesus said. Jesus did not say that He is not as good as His Father. Jesus only said not to call Him good, probably becaue Jesus wanted them to only call God good.

'Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

If Jesus is as good as God then either He was lying about nobody is good but God, or He is God.

No, greater doesn't mean better. It can mean more powerful, which God is. I cannot remember the verse, but I know all authority was given to Jesus, so Jesus has the same authority as God while He walked the earth.

That passage would be this one: Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

So Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth now, after being a human with a human's power and authority.

Probably nobody will be as much of a cat lover as me.

Maybe that is true. They are cute but if we end up letting them outside much we will have the death of many birds and smaller animals in the area.

 

[Brian2]

It doesn't mean that .. lots of religions/creeds believe their prophet/guru was sinless, but not G-d.

In the Bible all people have sinned except Jesus. It is in our nature.

One does not have to be "anti-Messiah" to believe that Jesus is not G-d.
The expected messiah, in Judaism, is not G-d himself.

Islam acknowledges Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, and believes he will return to fulfill the Jewish prophecy.

Muhammad denies the gospel and the possibility that the Christian gospel is true.
What makes Jesus the Messiah according to Muhammad?

 

[Kathryn]

Do you ever wonder if you are mistaken since some Christians HAVE to be wrong due to disagreements?

Well if God exists don't you think he would be helping guide believers since there is so much disagreement? Could it be that you debating at all might be an opportunity to adjust what you think. After all, as a sinner, and "worthless rag" as the Bible puts it, you could be mistaken in what you currently believe, yes? The quesion is how you open yourself to adjustments.

What you think isn't God, yes? If God sepercedes all that wouldn't that suggest you need to be always open to learning and adjustment of what you think?

Like I've said over and over again on this forum and in real life, I think we are all in for some surprises on Judgment Day.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Muhammad denies the gospel and the possibility that the Christian gospel is true..

No .. just your take on it..

What makes Jesus the Messiah according to Muhammad?

..you mean according to G-d?
The Qur'an is from G-d .. Muhammad was the messenger.

You seem to have ignored what you are replying to..
Here it is again..
"The expected messiah, in Judaism, is not G-d himself.

Islam acknowledges Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, and believes he will return to fulfill the Jewish prophecy."

 

[Brian2]

No .. just your take on it..

Well yes, the Christian Gospel, with Jesus dying to save take our sins on Himself as the gospels tell us and as the OT tells us.

..you mean according to G-d?
The Qur'an is from G-d .. Muhammad was the messenger.

You seem to have ignored what you are replying to..
Here it is again..
"The expected messiah, in Judaism, is not G-d himself.

Islam acknowledges Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, and believes he will return to fulfill the Jewish prophecy."

Yes so what prophecies does Islam or did Muhammad say that Jesus has fulfilled already as the Messiah?

 

[F1fan]

Like I've said over and over again on this forum and in real life, I think we are all in for some surprises on Judgment Day.

And what sort of suprizes do you think we ALL are in for? Do you think you are going to be surprized too? If so, in what way?

 

[Kathryn]

And what sort of suprizes do you think we ALL are in for? Do you think you are going to be surprized too? If so, in what way?

Sure I think I am going to be surprised. I have no idea what those surprises are going to be. If I did, they wouldn't be surprises! LOL

 

[F1fan]

That's the story I heard from Christians, and I don't see any reason by reading what was written in the NT to doubt what they said. So, if I'm going to doubt something it is the NT itself, and I do.

The NT, to me, makes it clear, Jesus had to die to pay the sin debt owed to God.

And this is what I find really odd, how can there be a debt owed to God when God created all things the way he wanted? It sounds like a set up. But then the Garden myth is a set up as well. So a corrupt God rules the whole lineage of stories in the Bible. The "Jesus had to die" thing goes against the tri-omni God claim because an all-powerful God could make any solution work instantly.

He was the spotless Lamb of God, the Lamb that was slain etc.

And this is the crux of the whole Jesus story being a myth that is expanded from lambs slaughtered as offerings to God.

And the NT goes into how we, supposedly, got into this sin debt. It was all because Adam disobeyed God.

Yeah, and that was a set up since God gave A&E rules to follow, but not only didn't create them capable of obedience, but also sent the serpent to tempt them. Maybe A&E would have not eaten from the Tree of Knowledge, and God knew this and decided to send the serpent. Then sin fell upon the earth, and it's not God's doing? And then there's a debt to pay? Says who? Let's remember the Noah Flood did not fix anything, and just killed a lot of people and animals in a horrible way. And this God thinks it's owed something? How about murder charges?

So, again, my complaint about the Baha'is is that they deny that and other important beliefs of Christianity and only keep the stuff they can use.

This reminds me of what happens when invaders pillage towns. This strategy of Baha'i doesn't seem to be very effective, especially since what attracts a believer to stay in a religion is the tradition of belief and ritual.

 

[F1fan]

Sure I think I am going to be surprised. I have no idea what those surprises are going to be. If I did, they wouldn't be surprises! LOL

It's a sort of pascal's wager thing, as if there is no judgment day for you before you die then you can believe it just wasn't time yet. Still, judgment day is an absurd idea, especially aftyer two world wars in the last century, which included the extermination of 6 million of God's chosen people. It's time for God to realize he created a design flaw in creation. Maybe that's the case, and God thinks why should he kill off humanity (again) to fix a mistake he made.

 

[Kathryn]

It's a sort of pascal's wager thing, as if there is no judgment day for you before you die then you can believe it just wasn't time yet. Still, judgment day is an absurd idea, especially aftyer two world wars in the last century, which included the extermination of 6 million of God's chosen people. It's time for God to realize he created a design flaw in creation. Maybe that's the case, and God thinks why should he kill off humanity (again) to fix a mistake he made.

I guess that's what you believe. I believe otherwise of course. I've been through very difficult times by the way. Thankfully I survived them. One day I won't, I guess. I mean, my human body won't survive. Such is life and death!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes so what prophecies does Islam or did Muhammad say that Jesus has fulfilled already as the Messiah?

I don't think you are reading my posts..

It is not what "Islam" prophecies, it is what JEWS prophesise about the Messiah.
Jesus was a Jew .. Christianity, as a religion, had not yet started when Jesus was alive on earth.

G-d in His wisdom, raised him to heaven, before he had fulfilled his role as Messiah.
Jesus will return to fulfill his role as Messiah.
That's it .. simple.