Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[danieldemol]

I don't believe that anyone is perfectly good except Jesus and maybe Baha'u'llah.

According to my understanding the Baha'i teachings require you to believe *all* the alleged "Manifestations of God" where perfect.

This includes Adam, Moses and Muhammad as I understand it.

In my opinion

 

[Brian2]

Right.
Muslims do not believe that Jesus has fulfilled any Messianic prophecies .. yet.


..more or less.


No .. Jesus is the Messiah, and he will return to fulfill the prophecies.

G-d raised Jesus to "heaven" to return at a time appointed as his mission was untenable.
i.e. the political situation

It sounds like you are saying that God sent Jesus (or appointed Him if you do not think Jesus was sent from heaven) to be the Messiah when God knew that He (both the Messiah and God) could not complete the task at that time. Is that right?

 

[F1fan]

I know the truth can be hard to accept as it was for me initially

See, more division. You are talking about "truth" as if your Baha'i dogma is absolute fact. Your Baha'i dogma is irrelevant to anyon who doesn't assign it meaning. Your attitude fails your dogma is about unity. It only shows it isn't truth.

but over time after thinking about it it made a lot of sense that all religions unite as it might help get rid of wars and conflicts.

Except your attitude is divisive and you are resistant to understanding this. You are a dogmatist, not a unifier.

As to homosexuality the Bible and Quran both say the same thing.

So what? Thse are texts that have no authority outside of their religious groups, and many of thes members accept gays as equal, and reject their book's bigotry. That you defer to your text and prophet only reveals that you are a blind follower, not a person who values their own moral sense.

So things like the virtues and upright character which all the major religions teach you are saying is wrong or not in harmony with one another?

Yeah, look at the laws in Leviticus and Exodus that have rules that would land a modern person in jail if they followed them. So yeah, no harmony with modern moral attitudes of tolerance.

Buddha taught that one must defeat hate with love (Dhammapadda) and Christ taught love one another (NT) so where is the competition between coke and Pepsi there?

Do you think anti-gay rhetoric shows love? Of course not. But you have chosen your Baha'i dogma over love. Are we supposed to b impressed? The moral attitudes of humanists are superior to your acceptance of bigotry.

If one explores the scriptures of all the major religions they Will discover thousands of complementary passages which prove that the essence of all religions is one and the same and the only differences being what men have added (which was not part of the original teachings in the first place)

Why need any of these books when we have our own minds? Why do you want to be a follwoer? You still need to figure out which parts to follow and which parts to reject, and given you decided that anti-gay attitudes are acceptable I suggest being a follower is not working for you in the 21st century. Your moral framework is divisive and obsolete.

 

[F1fan]

There are many harmful things we can follow. Religious fanaticism is one of the worst. Unfettered science - think Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the arms race. Humanity armed to the teeth to destroy itself a hundred times over all created by the logic and reason of science. This is why we need and God sends a new Prophet for each age because otherwise we would destroy ourselves - think WW1 & 2 - wasn’t God’s fault.

Sure it was, humans are exactly as God created (assduming all these religious books are accurate and fsctual, which they are not).

But also despite your supposed messenger being sent by a God there were still wars, even to this day. Your messenger accomplished nothing. Didn't your God know this would be a failure? Your God sending a messenger was like sending a mouse to stop a freight train. That's not a God anyone should worship, as don't you tink a God could do better if it really wanted unity and global peace? God could have easily made humans less emotional and more ratonal.

Actually if we all obeyed the law of Christ to love one another there would have been world peace long ago.

God didn't create humans to do this.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It sounds like you are saying that God sent Jesus (or appointed Him if you do not think Jesus was sent from heaven) to be the Messiah when God knew that He (both the Messiah and God) could not complete the task at that time. Is that right?

Yes .. and He also knew what would happen to John the Baptist as well.
G-d is aware of all things.

 

[CG Didymus]

According to my understanding the Baha'i teachings require you to believe *all* the alleged "Manifestations of God" where perfect.

This includes Adam, Moses and Muhammad as I understand it.

In my opinion

I think that the Baha'i claim is that manifestations are mirrors that "perfectly" reflect God. But from the stories in the Bible, we know these people weren't perfect. I'm sure Baha'is have a "perfect" explanation, though.

 

[CG Didymus]

Except your attitude is divisive and you are resistant to understanding this. You are a dogmatist, not a unifier.

Unless all of us jump on board, the Baha'i Faith will not create unity. However, what if all of did believe and submit to the Baha'i Faith and its rules? Could people, all people, live by those rules and obey all of them? Since there is fines and punishments for breaking the rules and even the death penalty, it seems like even the Baha'i Faith expects some people to break them. And who will Baha'is get to enforce their rules?

But also despite your supposed messenger being sent by a God there were still wars,

I constantly bring up the NT verse where Jesus says that there will be wars and rumors of wars but that is not yet the end. Baha'is don't seem to believe that verse should be taken literally or seriously.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to my understanding the Baha'i teachings require you to believe *all* the alleged "Manifestations of God" where perfect.

This includes Adam, Moses and Muhammad as I understand it.

In my opinion

Maybe so, but I don't always do what is required. I do my own thing.
Are the Baha'i police going to come after me for believing what I choose to?

If I am not sure of something, I am not going to believe it, and after all it is just a Baha'i dogma.
I don't think that Baha'u'llah ever said all the Manifestations of God were perfect.

 

[danieldemol]

Maybe so, but I don't always do what is required. I do my own thing.
Are the Baha'i police going to come after me for believing what I choose to?

Well I have no beef with those who claim to be Baha'i but do not follow essential Baha'i teachings, but if your fellow Baha'i discover your lack of conformity there likely will be hammers of orthodoxy to come along and insist that you adhere to the foundational principles of Baha'i teaching. (I won't be the one to alert them to you, but I can tell you from my own past experience such hammers of orthodoxy exist).

If I am not sure of something, I am not going to believe it, and after all it is just a Baha'i dogma.
I don't think that Baha'u'llah ever said all the Manifestations of God were perfect.

Whether Baha'u'llah explicitly stated it or not is besides the point as Baha'i teachings come collectively from Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and to some extent the Baha'i Universal House of Justice as well as from Baha'u'llah. And explicit statements that the so-called "Manifestations of God" are perfect are found as early as from Abdul-Baha onwards as I understand it.

For example consider this;
'Man, therefore, on the plane of the contingent world is the most perfect being. By man is meant the perfect individual, who is like unto a mirror in which the divine perfections are manifested and reflected. But the sun doth not descend from the height of its sanctity to enter into the mirror, but when the latter is purified and turned towards the Sun of Truth, the perfections of this Sun, consisting of light and heat, are reflected and manifested in that mirror. These souls are the Divine Manifestations of God.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 61-62

In my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well I have no beef with those who claim to be Baha'i but do not follow essential Baha'i teachings, but if your fellow Baha'i discover your lack of conformity there likely will be hammers of orthodoxy to come along and insist that you adhere to the foundational principles of Baha'i teaching. (I won't be the one to alert them to you, but I can tell you from my own past experience such hammers of orthodoxy exist).

I know about those hammers only too well, which is why I keep my mouth shut, except on here. One reason why I do not participate in the Baha'i community is because I do not fit in since I am a free thinker.

I do not consider the Manifestations of God being perfect to be an 'essential part' of the Baha'i teachings, I consider it added dogma.
I do not have to relinquish my belief in Baha'u'llah just because I don't agree with the orthodox position.

Whether Baha'u'llah explicitly stated it or not is besides the point as Baha'i teachings come collectively from Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and to some extent the Baha'i Universal House of Justice as well as from Baha'u'llah. And explicit statements that the so-called "Manifestations of God" are perfect are found as early as from Abdul-Baha onwards as I understand it.

You are preaching to the choir. I do not follow Abdu'l-Baha, I follow Baha'u'llah. I accept Abdu'l-Baha's interpretations of the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I do not accept all the additions. I know the other Baha'is disagree with me but I don't believe Abdu'l-Baha was given the authority to add things to the Baha'i Writings. The Baha'is will always cite the Covenant, and how that means that what all the central figures of the Faith wrote carry as much authority as Baha'u'llah, but the Covenant is not explicit on this matter.

For example consider this;
'Man, therefore, on the plane of the contingent world is the most perfect being. By man is meant the perfect individual, who is like unto a mirror in which the divine perfections are manifested and reflected. But the sun doth not descend from the height of its sanctity to enter into the mirror, but when the latter is purified and turned towards the Sun of Truth, the perfections of this Sun, consisting of light and heat, are reflected and manifested in that mirror. These souls are the Divine Manifestations of God.'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 61-62

Fine, even if I accept that as true, it does not say who those Divine Manifestations of God were. Unless it can be found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, it is not clear who they were. Which ones were just prophets and which ones were Manifestations of God? We know who some of them were, but we don't know who all of them were. Baha'u'llah never clarified that so it is very fuzzy.

 

[danieldemol]

Fine, even if I accept that as true, it does not say who those Divine Manifestations of God were. Unless it can be found in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, it is not clear who they were. Which ones were just prophets and which ones were Manifestations of God? We know who some of them were, but we don't know who all of them were. Baha'u'llah never clarified that so it is very fuzzy.

Baha'u'llah identifies Adam as a Manifestation;
'Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb. I testify before God that each one of these Manifestations hath been sent down through the operation of the Divine Will and Purpose, that each hath been the bearer of a specific Message, that each hath been entrusted with a divinely-revealed Book'

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 74-75

Also Muhammad;
'And as the Jews, in the time of Muḥammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, 87 after their own fancy'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

It seems from this passage Baha'u'llah considered Moses to be a manifestation of the Eternal Being, which is after all another way of saying Manifestation of God;

'It is obvious and manifest that the true meaning of the utterances of the Birds of Eternity is revealed to none except those that manifest the Eternal Being, and the melodies of the Nightingale of Holiness can reach no ear save that of the denizens of the everlasting realm. The Copt of tyranny can never partake of the cup touched by the lips of the Sept of justice, and the Pharaoh of unbelief can never hope to recognize the hand of the Moses of truth.'

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

In my opinion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah identifies Adam as a Manifestation;
'Contemplate with thine inward eye the chain of successive Revelations that hath linked the Manifestation of Adam with that of the Báb. I testify before God that each one of these Manifestations hath been sent down through the operation of the Divine Will and Purpose, that each hath been the bearer of a specific Message, that each hath been entrusted with a divinely-revealed Book'

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 74-75

Also Muhammad;
'And as the Jews, in the time of Muḥammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His Manifestation, 87 after their own fancy'

Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

It seems from this passage Baha'u'llah considered Moses to be a manifestation of the Eternal Being, which is after all another way of saying Manifestation of God;

'It is obvious and manifest that the true meaning of the utterances of the Birds of Eternity is revealed to none except those that manifest the Eternal Being, and the melodies of the Nightingale of Holiness can reach no ear save that of the denizens of the everlasting realm. The Copt of tyranny can never partake of the cup touched by the lips of the Sept of justice, and the Pharaoh of unbelief can never hope to recognize the hand of the Moses of truth.'

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 3-41

In my opinion.

*INFORMATIVE*

 

[Brian2]

Yes .. and He also knew what would happen to John the Baptist as well.
G-d is aware of all things.

I don't think that we can say that about John the Baptist because John the Baptist completed his mission. He announced the Messiah and pointed Him out and Baptized Him. John even announced Him as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, something Jesus is said to have done, something which is a Messianic task in the OT, and even a description of aspects of His crucifixion is given in the OT.
Why would God send the Messiah if God knew He would not be able to do His Messianic work?

 

[Brian2]

Maybe so, but I don't always do what is required. I do my own thing.
Are the Baha'i police going to come after me for believing what I choose to?

If I am not sure of something, I am not going to believe it, and after all it is just a Baha'i dogma.
I don't think that Baha'u'llah ever said all the Manifestations of God were perfect.

Baha'i says that the Manifestations of God do/did not sin. I suppose that is something from Baha'u'llah.
The Bible tells us that the Baha'i Manifestations sin, except Jesus.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I don't think that we can say that about John the Baptist because John the Baptist completed his mission. He announced the Messiah and pointed Him out and Baptized Him.

Really?
..so John the Baptist did not "save" souls?
His only purpose was to "point out Jesus"?
..makes no sense.

Why would God send the Messiah if God knew He would not be able to do His Messianic work?

Why did G-d send ANY prophet?
Jesus was not the only prophet to be "killed", or in danger of their life.
For a prophet to be condemned by "G-d's people" is bad .. VERY bad.

Jesus is reported to have said he would return .. that is what G-d has ordained.
He also knew that Christianity would be a major religion.
He is aware of all things.

 

[viole]

So things like the virtues and upright character which all the major religions teach you are saying is wrong or not in harmony with one another? Buddha taught that one must defeat hate with love (Dhammapadda) and Christ taught love one another (NT) so where is the competition between coke and Pepsi there? If one explores the scriptures of all the major religions they Will discover thousands of complementary passages which prove that the essence of all religions is one and the same and the only differences being what men have added (which was not part of the original teachings in the first place)

Well Coke and Pepsi also fight for creating the best drinking experience. Or to convince people that they are bettwr than the orhers. Their taste is also in harmony with the other.

So, what is your point?

ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'i says that the Manifestations of God do/did not sin. I suppose that is something from Baha'u'llah.

I do not know where that belief came from. I do not recall Baha'u'llah writing it, but I haven't read all of His Writings.
Maybe @Truthseeker can help me out if he knows where that came from, since he knows the Baha'i Writings a lot better than I do.

I just looked in my saved Word documents and I found this article.

Dying for Our Sins

“The Bible says "[f]or all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"37 but for Bahá'ís this description does not apply to the various Manifestations of God such as Abraham or Zoroaster any more than it applies to Jesus Christ. 'Abdu'l-Bahá says: "[f]or these Holy Souls [the Manifestations] are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults."38

They are all pure and sinless, not by virtue of the physical conditions surrounding their advents, but because the spiritual nature of the Manifestation of God is different from that of the ordinary human. Whilst they share with us the human condition: that is they are born, live out their lives on earth, suffer weaknesses such as hunger and illness, enjoy human emotions such as love, and eventually they suffer physical death (see endnote 30) - nevertheless they have a different spiritual nature than the rest of humanity. "The Prophets, unlike us, are pre-existent"39 and are "pure from sin".40”

37 Bible, "Romans" 3:23
38 `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p170
39 Shoghi Effendi, High Endeavours, p72
40 `Abdu'l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p170

Dying for Our Sins

I guess it was Abdu'l-Baha who said the Manifestations of God are all sinless, and he explained why.
He also explained the meaning of the verse we were discussing, Mark 10:18.

“How often the Prophets of God and His supreme Manifestations in Their prayers confess Their sins and faults! This is only to teach other men, to encourage and incite them to humility and meekness, and to induce them to confess their sins and faults. For these Holy Souls are pure from every sin and sanctified from faults. In the Gospel it is said that a man came to Christ and called Him “Good Master.” Christ answered, “Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but One, that is, God.” 3 This did not mean—God forbid!—that Christ was a sinner; but the intention was to teach submission, humility, meekness and modesty to the man to whom He spoke. These Holy Beings are lights, and light does not unite itself with darkness. They are life, and life and death are not confounded. They are for guidance, and guidance and error cannot be together. They are the essence of obedience, and obedience cannot exist with rebellion.” Some Answered Questions, p. 170

The Bible tells us that the Baha'i Manifestations sin, except Jesus.

Yes, I know that 'Christians believe' that only Jesus was sinless, but I don't know where that is stated in the Bible.

 

[CG Didymus]

Well I have no beef with those who claim to be Baha'i but do not follow essential Baha'i teachings

I think they very well could be a problem where the Baha'is in power become too authoritarian and demand conformity.

Whether Baha'u'llah explicitly stated it or not is besides the point as Baha'i teachings come collectively from Abdul-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and to some extent the Baha'i Universal House of Justice as well as from Baha'u'llah. And explicit statements that the so-called "Manifestations of God" are perfect are found as early as from Abdul-Baha onwards as I understand it.

If Baha'is don't take what Abdul Baha' says then what about Buddha and Krishna? I haven't found any quote from Baha'u'llah that says they were manifestations.

Baha'u'llah identifies Adam as a Manifestation;

But Adam was a manifestation? How? Why? Was he even a real person? And, going by the Bible story, he clearly wasn't. He disobeyed God. So, why does Baha'u'llah get this from?

 

[Trailblazer]

But Adam was a manifestation? How? Why? Was he even a real person? And, going by the Bible story, he clearly wasn't. He disobeyed God.

Baha'is don't go by the Bible stories, we go by what Baha'u'llah wrote.

So, why does Baha'u'llah get this from?

God.

 

[idea]

There are many harmful things we can follow. Religious fanaticism is one of the worst. Unfettered science - think Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the arms race. Humanity armed to the teeth to destroy itself a hundred times over all created by the logic and reason of science. This is why we need and God sends a new Prophet for each age because otherwise we would destroy ourselves - think WW1 & 2 - wasn’t God’s fault. Actually if we all obeyed the law of Christ to love one another there would have been world peace long ago.

It is humanity's law to work together, learn together, and be kind to one another. Moderation is key, as is really listening to multiple viewpoints - no single prophet - or everyone a prophet - the key is listening to as many views as possible to gain increased understanding for all. ❤