muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
When I questioned the vicar in my church at the age of 15, that is what he told me.
I asked a whole lot of questions about the trinity, and he gave up and left it at that.
..not another one claiming to be God !
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Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
I asked a whole lot of questions about the trinity, and he gave up and left it at that.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
You cannot say that something is one and that same something is three at the same time, and still claim to be logical.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Not all translations of that verse are the same. Some translate elohim as God, others translate it as judges. The King James Bible says, "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods." Elohim is of course plural denoting the majesty of God. Language is language.Here is a direct Hebrew to English Translation -- with the KJV on the side for comparison.
Please notice the word Elohim is used twice in line 1 .. but also the word "EL" is used .. and used as a proper name.
Elohim one of those stationed - in the congregation of El - in the midst of the Elohim
YHWH ......................................................... (EL) ................... ............................. The Gods
The idea that these are human Judges is a desperate attempt to explain away the obvious polytheism .. these arguments coming from "Then" prior to what we know now .. meaning that idea is no longer entertained in serious theological circles .. Sans the Evangelical/ Fundamentalist -- who don't count .. unfortunately.
First off --while your Pastor and your neighbor may not know what the Divine Council of EL - is referring to - Every Soul Singing this hymn during the time of Solomon .. and every soul listening .. throughout Mesopotamia - to Egypt and Greece .. the Indus Valley and the people of India .. knew what the Divine Council of EL was. and believed in this council .. of the Most High God .. the Father .. Creator ..a Grey beard who dwells in the Mountain .. God of the Sky . the Wind .. Just like Son YHWH in many ways..
So what we have here is YHWH -- as Prosecutor in a court .. EL at the top of the Food chain .. in the midst of the congregation/assembly of the Gods .. often referred to as "Sons of God"
YHWH ends up defeatingthe other Gods who are battling to Usurp El's position as Chief on Earth. Marduk - Baal-Hadad -- are a few other contenders you may have heard of. El Still remains high in the heavens .. The Sons battle it out for Chief on Earth ..
Later on 1:6 -- as YHWH pronounces Judgement - he says "I Say you are Gods (Elohim) .. all of you "Sons of the Supreme one"
YHWH qualifies who these "Elohim" are. They are Sons of the Supreme one.
and it is no secret who that is .. obviously they are not Sons of YHWH .. There is no human alive at the time nor for 1000 years prior .. nor 500 years later .. that does not know who the "Supreme one" is referring to in this story. And that is what matters to interpretation. What did these people think .. not what You or I think. .. and we know exactly what they thought .. in quite some detail these days .. all about this Battle that is going on .. right before your eyes in the Bible to the initiated eye.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is already written that the nations had other gods. You need to understand what the word God means. Or god means. Hebrew and English are different anyway. Hebrew does not have two different cases, like upper and lower.Here is a direct Hebrew to English Translation -- with the KJV on the side for comparison.
Please notice the word Elohim is used twice in line 1 .. but also the word "EL" is used .. and used as a proper name.
Elohim one of those stationed - in the congregation of El - in the midst of the Elohim
YHWH ......................................................... (EL) ................... ............................. The Gods
The idea that these are human Judges is a desperate attempt to explain away the obvious polytheism .. these arguments coming from "Then" prior to what we know now .. meaning that idea is no longer entertained in serious theological circles .. Sans the Evangelical/ Fundamentalist -- who don't count .. unfortunately.
First off --while your Pastor and your neighbor may not know what the Divine Council of EL - is referring to - Every Soul Singing this hymn during the time of Solomon .. and every soul listening .. throughout Mesopotamia - to Egypt and Greece .. the Indus Valley and the people of India .. knew what the Divine Council of EL was. and believed in this council .. of the Most High God .. the Father .. Creator ..a Grey beard who dwells in the Mountain .. God of the Sky . the Wind .. Just like Son YHWH in many ways..
So what we have here is YHWH -- as Prosecutor in a court .. EL at the top of the Food chain .. in the midst of the congregation/assembly of the Gods .. often referred to as "Sons of God"
YHWH ends up defeatingthe other Gods who are battling to Usurp El's position as Chief on Earth. Marduk - Baal-Hadad -- are a few other contenders you may have heard of. El Still remains high in the heavens .. The Sons battle it out for Chief on Earth ..
Later on 1:6 -- as YHWH pronounces Judgement - he says "I Say you are Gods (Elohim) .. all of you "Sons of the Supreme one"
YHWH qualifies who these "Elohim" are. They are Sons of the Supreme one.
and it is no secret who that is .. obviously they are not Sons of YHWH .. There is no human alive at the time nor for 1000 years prior .. nor 500 years later .. that does not know who the "Supreme one" is referring to in this story. And that is what matters to interpretation. What did these people think .. not what You or I think. .. and we know exactly what they thought .. in quite some detail these days .. all about this Battle that is going on .. right before your eyes in the Bible to the initiated eye.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
which is why I quoted fro a jewish translation and not the KJV
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Thus you are aware that judges can be classified as elohim.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Have you ever heard of the Hypostatic union? If not, the Hypostatic union is the Christian theological belief that Jesus Christ had a human nature while he lived on earth as a man yet remained fully God. It encapsulates Christ's humanity and divinity in a single hypostasis, or individual personhood, and is in conjunction with the Trinity doctrine. I was taught this when I was a Christian, and it's what I believed during that time. I attended a Baptist Church while I was growing up, but I switched to the Nazarene Church when I was eighteen, and this belief was preached in both churches. FYI, these articles explain the theology: "What is the hypostatic union?" and "Does Christ have two natures?" Speaking of God's triune nature, there are also non-Trinitarian Christians.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
"The only way to adequately explain the biblical data is to say that Jesus is one Person with two natures—a human nature and a divine nature. He is both God and Man. His two natures are inseparably united (not mixed) in what theologians term the “hypostatic union.” The New Testament affirms that Jesus Christ, who walked the earth, died on a cross, and rose again, was fully a member of the human race with a fully functioning human nature (without sin). At the same time, Jesus was fully God. He willingly humbled Himself and gave up His glory and the right to use His divine attributes apart from the direction of God the Father, but He never ceased to be God. Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God—He has the nature of both. He is a man, but He is more; He is also God. He is God, but He has forever joined Himself to a human nature. A shortened way to express this is to refer to Jesus as the God-Man. He is the Man who is also God, and He is God who became a Man."
Does Christ have two natures? | GotQuestions.org
Does Christ have two natures? Does Christ have one nature or two? Why is important to understand that Christ has two natures?
www.gotquestions.org
As a Baha'i, I also believe that Jesus had two natures, but I do not believe that Jesus was fully God and fully human because that is logically impossible. Jesus cannot be both God and Man. The Baha'i Faith has a more rational explanation. We believe that as a Manifestation of God Jesus had a twofold nature, so He had a human nature and a divine nature, but He was not God.
“Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself. To this testifieth the tradition: “Manifold and mysterious is My relationship with God. I am He, Himself, and He is I, Myself, except that I am that I am, and He is that He is.” …. The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” “Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?”
The article above says:"A shortened way to express this is to refer to Jesus as the God-Man. He is the Man who is also God, and He is God who became a Man."
I can agree that Jesus is a God-Man which would make Him kind of a hybrid, but Jesus is not a Man who is also God, since God is not a man!
Jesus is also not God who became a man, since God cannot become a man and still be God, since God is spirit, according to the Bible.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I already said yes. I'm not sure what your point is.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
yes, I have studied christology. but I reject it. The Tanakh (OT) clearly teaches that God is not a man.
Brian2
Veteran Member
A number of good comments -- most not seeing trinity the same way -- most not knowing what it is nevermind
To sum up your position -- God created all things - everything comes from God - Jesus is just an extension of God - acting in concert with The Father .. not an individual as such --- but then .. you say Jesus came to earth as a Man .. and further -- he died -- then later claim there are 3 individuals -- 3 wills this is contradiction.
You have contradiction because you sum up my position wrong.
You are now going on to just completely misrepresent what I said.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
I no longer believe in Jesus or God, and I now believe that if a religious man named Yehoshua (Yeshua/Jesus) existed more than 2,000 years ago in Israel, then he was most likely just an ordinary mortal man and popular religious teacher whose devoted followers embellished the stories about him, and more embellishment and folklore were later added to these stories to make him appear to be more than he actually was. I believe that it's probable that he was simply a well-liked religious teacher whose devoted followers circulated false stories about him in order to make him appear godlike. I also think that it's likely that a few stories about him were copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions as well, which predate Christianity and the Bible. In fact, I believe that paganism had a significant impact on the stories about Jesus and Christianity and that Christianity is a copycat religion.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That judges can be considered as gods. Elohim. God. gods, or judges.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I'm sorry, but that is not a logical conclusion. Bat can mean a flying mammal, or bat can mean a stick to hit a ball with. The fact that it is used both ways does not mean that a flying mammal is a stick.
Already explained this to you .. Translations in the past did not have the information we have today - and/or translators would intentionally mistranslate and/or were copying from a bad translation. You were given the current Hebrew translation along side the KJV for a reason ..
"EL" is not the Mighty .. EL is a personal Name denoted as such by the text.
NO serious Biblical Scholor .. nor theologian . sans the fundamentalist evangelicals as discussed .. translates the Divine Council of EL .. as Council of the Mighty ..
What part of .. everyone in the entire known world living at that time knows what the "Congregation of EL" -- Further .. Every Israelite believes in a Divine Pantheon headed by EL .. they build shrines to El and Offer Sacrifices to El .. just as Abraham and MelchiZedek .
The KJV is full of intentional mistranslations -- trying to make the text better fit dogma of the day .. in particular around issues related to sex and polygamy.
I did not sum your position wrong -- nor misrepresent what you said. Hence why you can not state where this was done. What were you accused of saying -- that you did not say. You contradict yourself a number of times .. as pointed out .. none of which is a misrepresentation.
you stated that while God created the two others .. these two others are equal to God --- how is that a misrepresentation ? it is what you said ?
You are the one who has no idea what God means .. as the translation you are using is bad -- and you simply don't understand the subject matter .. such as .. when you see Lord written .. the actual Hebrew Word is not "Lord" most of the time. The name YHWH has been replaced with the word Lord. The Same is True of Elohim -- which in of itself can have numerous meanings but what is written is "GOD" or the Word "EL" "GOD" or the Proper Name "EL" .. all are lumped into the word God.
In this case .. "Council of EL" the Proper Name is used. Hence the New English Translation (NET)
Psalm 82:1
"God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment"
You are the one who has no idea what God means .. as the translation you are using is bad -- and you simply don't understand the subject matter .. such as .. when you see Lord written .. the actual Hebrew Word is not "Lord" most of the time. The name YHWH has been replaced with the word Lord. The Same is True of Elohim -- which in of itself can have numerous meanings but what is written is "GOD" or the Word "EL" "GOD" or the Proper Name "EL" .. all are lumped into the word God.
In this case .. "Council of EL" the Proper Name is used. Hence the New English Translation (NET)
Psalm 82:1
"God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment"
and these are not human judges occupying the Divine Council in heaven
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Brian2
Veteran Member
You did not point anything out, all you did was say that I said things which I did not say.
For example, where did I say that God created Jesus and the Spirit of God?
Brian2
Veteran Member
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
Jesus is here quoting Psalm 82:6 where God calls the human Jewish judges, "gods".