Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[Sargonski]

Well, history seems to be your forte..
I approach the subject differently to you.

You assume that there is no "creator", and mankind is superstitious and made up a load of gods.
I assume that there is a creator, and He sent messengers from ourselves, the evidence being
the scriptures that we have.

Can historical record prove either you or I incorrect? Certainly not.
Historical record is tainted by the opinion of authors.

You are trying to change the subject -- understandably so given previously crucified position - and yes History is my forte - Biblical History even more so --- which part of the reason I know your claim that the Israelites were monotheists is preposterously untrue ... that the Israelites believed in many Gods .. a Divine Pantheon .. and spent almost no time worshiping only YHWH ... but I need not history books and Youtube to know this . I figured it out by reading the Bible .. same way those others did

I can help you if you like and others tasked with the same simple task and failing same as you (Brian) - The only period I can come up with is from the time they crossed the Reed Sea -- until building the Golden Calf at the behest of Moses Brother Aaron .. Forgot how much time that is but is not much...

Don't need the Historical Record -- just the Bible .. but the Historical Record completely backs the Bible up .. and adds to our understanding of the Bible ..

"You assume there is no Creator" - a preposterously false assumption -- in an attempt to demonize the messenger .. just like what the Fundi initiates are trained to do .. -- That SMC showing up again Im afraid == a "Thought Stopping Technique"

Now back to the moral of the story

1) Sons of God - means Sons of God
2) Divine Pantheon .. El at the top --- God of Abraham is El -- not debated in serious circles
3) YHWH -- a "Son of God" who vies for the title of Chief of the Earth .. usurping the position of El -- YHWH in effect Becomes EL - takes on all the attributes of EL .. .. except EL is still around YHWH becomes Chief of the Earth .. for example in Psalm 82 .. when he defeats all the other Gods - El is still "The Most High" in the heavens .. just receded into the Background.

We see the exact same thing going on with all the other Sons of God --- all battling each other for supremacy over the earth -- This is not just the Israelite Story .. but everyones story --- only thing that Changes is the name of the God they bring out to Battle .. and sometimes YHWH loses - One of the more interesting cases being the battle against the Moabites .. a battle also recorded by the other side .. Moabite Stone.

Now back to the Creator -- this God you have yet to define or name -- about which you make rash assumptions - that contradict the Bible. Does your God have a name Brother G ? ----> and what qualifies one as a divinity higher than an Angel -- Do Satan's powers make the cut for example --
> and Yes Brian .. it is you who is the disbeliever in the Room ---

OK, you believe parts of the Bible.


You tell me.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..yes History is my forte - Biblical History even more so --- which part of the reason I know your claim that the Israelites were monotheists is preposterously untrue..

You seem to be on some sort of crusade..
What the Israelites are or were is not the point .. what they were being taught by G-d IS.

... that the Israelites believed in many Gods .. a Divine Pantheon .. and spent almost no time worshiping only YHWH

..so what?
Nations do all sorts of things.
One can follow a nation, and they can worship all kinds of things/gods..
..and that is why messengers were sent to them continually, to put them back on track.

1) Sons of God - means Sons of God

Meaningless .. without a context.

2) Divine Pantheon .. El at the top --- God of Abraham is El -- not debated in serious circles

False .. so-called scholars purely making assumptions.

 

[Brian2]

Told you 3 or 4 times now -- the post exile writers blamed everything on displeasing YHWH - so why are you repeating this back to me ... as if it has something to do with what writers from the time of Solomon are saying ?

"Lapses in Monotheism during the time of the Judges" - such a comment shows a depth of misunderstanding - Read the Bible -- There is no "Monotheism" in the history of the Israelites - Everyone believes in the existence of other Gods... even if they only worship one = Monolateralism. BUT -- rather than lapses -- almost all of the time the Israelites are worshiping other Gods alongside YHWH .. if worshiping YHWH at all .. during some periods he is completely forgotten.

Just read the Bible for yourself -- no need to consult the academics .. not that you have done that but no need. "Lapses" .. Find me a time when the Israelites were not lapsing ..

and last -- "Ok so you believe only parts of the Bible" - YES Brian .. Just like You.. -- do you need proof ? Now support your claim and find a time period when the Israelites were Monotheists .. (answer - Never) .. so we will make it easier .. find a time when they were Monolateralists = belief in other Gods but worshiping only YHWH - Abe's Idea .. not worshiping the other Gods along-side YHWH.

Tell you what .. even easier still -- find a time when the Israelites were not raging Pagans -- YHWH just one of a number of Gods worshiped.

and to answer your quest for proof of your own folly - Should children be persecuted and Killed for the Sins of their Parents - and/or others in the Tribe. This question is not asking what you think .. it is asking what you believe YHWH thinks on the topic.

Now show us the money .. support this claim of yours -- find us a time period when the Israelites when the Israelites were not raging Pagans.

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

I noticed that you said nothing about these Bible quotes.
YHWH in the Bible taught that He is the only true God.
This is what I am saying and it is clear from passages in the Bible.
This is monotheism, where any other gods are seen as no gods, they do not really exist except in the form of statues and in the minds of those who believe they are real gods. YHWH otoh is real and does not need statues and can be seen in what He does.
You however seem to be arguing from what you imagine the Israelites believed. You are reading their minds.
You are reading a history that spanned hundreds of years, as for example, the Judges period, and seem to think that the stories of parts of Israel falling from YHWH worship was a permanent state.

 

[Sargonski]

You seem to be on some sort of crusade..
What the Israelites are or were is not the point .. what they were being taught by G-d IS.


..so what?
Nations do all sorts of things.
One can follow a nation, and they can worship all kinds of things/gods..
..and that is why messengers were sent to them continually, to put them back on track.


Meaningless .. without a context.


False .. so-called scholars purely making assumptions.

Runing around crying "False False" does not make it so mate.... You are the one blathering unsupported assumptions -- The Biblical Scholars and Theologians give support for their claim .. and what they claim - is that the God of Abraman was "EL" and what the Bible tells us is that the Israelites were raging pagans

But since you know better -- then tell us the name by which Abe called this Most High God ?!

Glad you finally figured out that your claim that the Israelites were monotheistic was a raging falsehood .. "What they were taught by God" is to show respect to other Gods ... but they were to worship only YHWH. .. and what the Israelite beliefs were .. is 100% the point .. so again you fail.

 

[Sargonski]

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 — Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. (39) Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy32:39 — See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

I noticed that you said nothing about these Bible quotes.
YHWH in the Bible taught that He is the only true God.
This is what I am saying and it is clear from passages in the Bible.
This is monotheism, where any other gods are seen as no gods, they do not really exist except in the form of statues and in the minds of those who believe they are real gods. YHWH otoh is real and does not need statues and can be seen in what He does.
You however seem to be arguing from what you imagine the Israelites believed. You are reading their minds.
You are reading a history that spanned hundreds of years, as for example, the Judges period, and seem to think that the stories of parts of Israel falling from YHWH worship was a permanent state.

I did talk about these Bible Quotes .. Good grief you are hoplessly lost .. what part of THe Post exilic writers were monotheistic .. and blamed displeasing YHWH for the downfall of the Israelites .. did you miss the first three times. ??

Your quotes from Deuteronomy have nothing to do with the Israelite Beliefs or the fact that they were raging Pagans .. The D source writing 500 years later lamenting these Pagan Beliefs .. does not change the fact that the Israelites were raging Pagans .. such that when the Israelite authors wrote "Sons of God" -- they meant "Sons of God" .. for example the 70 sons of El in Deut 32:8

and once again you avoid telling us what kind of Divinity Satan was .. one of the Sons of God .. definitely not a Human ... like you desperately wish to plead ... or are you now going to claim that Satan was a Human Like Jesus.

and I am not reading anyone's mind .. Its what the Bible says .. of which you are obviously "Ignorant" that was th word you used was it not.

And you have yet to come up with the Name that Abraham called is God ..

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Krishna and Buddha were not prophets and not messengers. Teachers? Yes. Prophets or messengers? No. Stop trying to lump dharmic figures into your Abrahamic paradigm.

Thank you.

The question is valid though and Evangelicals do frequently mention Buddha and Krishna when they are denouncing what they view as false.gods.

 

[Brian2]

I did talk about these Bible Quotes .. Good grief you are hoplessly lost .. what part of THe Post exilic writers were monotheistic .. and blamed displeasing YHWH for the downfall of the Israelites .. did you miss the first three times. ??

Your quotes from Deuteronomy have nothing to do with the Israelite Beliefs or the fact that they were raging Pagans .. The D source writing 500 years later lamenting these Pagan Beliefs .. does not change the fact that the Israelites were raging Pagans .. such that when the Israelite authors wrote "Sons of God" -- they meant "Sons of God" .. for example the 70 sons of El in Deut 32:8

and once again you avoid telling us what kind of Divinity Satan was .. one of the Sons of God .. definitely not a Human ... like you desperately wish to plead ... or are you now going to claim that Satan was a Human Like Jesus.

and I am not reading anyone's mind .. Its what the Bible says .. of which you are obviously "Ignorant" that was th word you used was it not.

And you have yet to come up with the Name that Abraham called is God ..

It sounds like you deny that Deut 4:35, 39 and Deit 32:39 were written by Moses.
Satan is a false god.
No I would not have called you ignorant.
Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, the priest of God most High and in Gen 14:22 it has Abraham raising his hand to YHWH, the most high God.
I think YHWH here is a later redaction since YHWH says that He did not reveal His name to people before Moses. (Ex 6:3)

 

[SalixIncendium]

The question is valid though and Evangelicals do frequently mention Buddha and Krishna when they are denouncing what they view as false.gods.

Well, I supposed they'd be right in Buddha's case, because Buddha wasn't a god.

It's foolish for one to claim something is false if one is ignorant of what that something is.

 

[muhammad_isa]

and what the Israelite beliefs were .. is 100% the point .. so again you fail.

No, it's not.
What individuals know, or believe, does not alter the first commandment.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, I supposed they'd be right in Buddha's case, because Buddha wasn't a god.

It's foolish for one to claim something is false if one is ignorant of what that something is.

It is, but nevertheless their sense of monotheism is so rigid they can be rigidly mono-minded in their understanding of a god or deified/revered teachers and see these those figures through the same lense as their own beliefs.
And many of them never actually look beyond their own religion to gain the understanding of why that's wrong. When I was a teen and very Christian, it made it basically impossible to grasp any references or ideas from Shinto in any Japanese media because it's views are so different from Christianity yet their concept of god is used interchangeably with all religions.

 

[Sargonski]

It sounds like you deny that Deut 4:35, 39 and Deit 32:39 were written by Moses.
Satan is a false god.
No I would not have called you ignorant.
Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek, the priest of God most High and in Gen 14:22 it has Abraham raising his hand to YHWH, the most high God.
I think YHWH here is a later redaction since YHWH says that He did not reveal His name to people before Moses. (Ex 6:3)

Of course Deuteronomy was not written by Moses - at least not all of it ... Lest Moses rose from the Dead and wrote about his own death ?

Although Deuteronomy is presented as an address by Moses, scholars generally agree that it dates from a much later period of Israelite history. An early edition of Deuteronomy as it exists today has been identified with the book of the Law discovered in the Temple of Jerusalem about 622 BC (2 Kings 22:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15).

Deuteronomy | Ancient Hebrew Law, Moses & Covenant | Britannica

Deuteronomy, (“Words”), fifth book of the Old Testament, written in the form of a farewell address by Moses to the Israelites before they entered the Promised Land of Canaan. The speeches that constitute this address recall Israel’s past, reiterate laws that Moses had communicated to the people at

www.britannica.com

Regardless -- your passages from Deuteronomy does not change the fact that the Israelites were raging Pagans for almost their entire History .. and in fact didn't even have the Book of the Law (what ever that was as we don't know).

"Satan is a False God" - Not according to the Hebrew Bible .. nor is Azazel a False God -- according to the Hebrew bible.

"YHWH is a False God" - would be an equivalently moronic cry for help .. meaningless unsubstantiated mindless gibberish .. stated as such without explanatory support.

Abraham does not know any God by the name of YHWH. The God of Abraham is the same God as the Canaanite High Priest Melchizedek - the "Most High" of the Pantheon .. which was EL -- same God as over in Abrahams home town of Ur .. Elil -- by a slightly different name .. which was common in those days .. Zedek -- the Patron God of Melchizedek .. related to Elil .. part of the Circle of Friendly Deities in this Canaanite Town .. Of whome which many of Abe's descendants were related . geneticly linked if you will .. and the language that Abe adopts - indistinguishable from Canaanite if you go back far enough.

MelchiZedek is both Priest and King ... something Verbotten to the Israelites by the YHWH .. a good inovation that one .. full marks for YHWH on this front .. separating religion from State .. or at least the beginnings .. but - I digress.

Priest Kings of the Day would normally have one God or another attached to their name .. so nothing Unusual here and certainly not Priest Kings of Jerusalem .. some 500 years later the King is still named after the Patron God Zedek . in a town named for Peace or some such thing wasn't it . The Zedek diety(s) .. the god(s) of Truth and Justice .. Righteousness ..

One thing we can say for sure is that this Priestly line endured for some 500 years at Jerusalem ... or should we say Priestly Order .. when David showed up and took over. but, did not end the order .. rather did submit to the Order ... EL Zedek .. so it is written .. So it was done ..

Some Scholarship for you "Was Zadok a Jebusite" ?

The remnant of the Canaanite population did not become Israelites, worshiping the God of Israel. They kept their religion and maintained the worship of their God. When David conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites, the population of the city was not eliminated. To the contrary, the Jebusite population constituted the majority of those living in the new capital, the city of David.

According to the book of Genesis, Melchizedek king of Jerusalem, was also a priest of El Elyon, “God Most High” (Genesis 14:18). The meaning of the name Melchizedek is “My King is [the god] Zedek.” In the book of Hebrews, the name Melchizedek is interpreted to mean “King of Righteousness” (Hebrews 7:2).

Another king of Jerusalem is called Adonizedek (Joshua 10:1). The meaning of the name Adonizedek is “My Lord is [the god] Zedek.” Thus, the name Zedek and Zadok are associated with the Canaanite god Zedek.

Was Zadok a Jebusite?

A few days ago, Fencekicker at Journal of Heresies, in response to my post on the Religious Syncretism in Israel and Judah, asked the reason I believe Zadok was a Jebusite. Since it was difficult t…

claudemariottini.com

and all those other people David left in Jerusalem to live among the Israelites - Solomon built Temples -- for them to worship their Gods ... but never mind those Temples .. what about the Temple of YHWH .. what did that look like Brian care to tell me about the Temple .. since you are such a Bible Scholar .. what was the purpose of the Male and Female Prostitutes .. and the Ashrah pole .. and that High Place out back ..

 

[dybmh]

2) Divine Pantheon .. El at the top --- God of Abraham is El -- not debated in serious circles

The last time we spoke, I asked you to justify this, and explain why in Gen 15, it is written that Abraham started beleiving in Yahweh, and El is never mentioned again for him.

You never answered. You seemed to be stuck in gen 14, and couldn't move past it.

Have you made any progress on this. Or are you ignoring what is actually written in favor of something else?

 

[Sargonski]

No, it's not.
What individuals know, or believe, does not alter the first commandment.

Never said anything about altering the first command .. why are you building strawmen and pretending false arguments - in order to deflect from scripture -- desperate to avoid the fact that What Israelites believed .. has everything to do with the songs they sung in Church - and the meaning of those songs written during that time period such as in Psalm 82 and 89.. songs featuring other Gods - divinities -- a divine Pantheon as noted by Religious theological scholarship of every kind but the fundamentalist/Evangelicals .. who don't count

Tell me about the Temple of YHWH in Jerusalem .. under Mac Daddy Solomon and kin -- how was YHWH worshiped at the temple Muhamu .. since you so defacto and smat

 

[dybmh]

Some Scholarship for you "Was Zadok a Jebusite" ?

Oh, this is back too.

So, there's a minor issue with the geneology. Thats a so what? There's a fictional claim about a canaante God named Zedek, but no evidence that such a god exists. And two names which hail to a God being righteous. That's not much to go on.

The theory that Zadok is a Jebusite is very weak, the scholar who introduced the idea says so himself. He calls the theory an argument from silence, and since there's no reason for Zadok to be mentioned before he became relevant to he story, the argument from silence fails.

So.... why are you believing that a god named Zedek existed? Is there any actual evidence of this?

Here's a list of the canaanite gods.... No Zedek. Why ignore the simple answer in favor of fringe?

Canaanite religion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Sargonski]

The last time we spoke, I asked you to justify this, and explain why in Gen 15, it is written that Abraham started beleiving in Yahweh, and El is never mentioned again for him.

You never answered. You seemed to be stuck in gen 14, and couldn't move past it.

Have you made any progress on this. Or are you ignoring what is actually written in favor of something else?

Of course El is mentioned again .. and Abraham never starts talking to any God by the name YHWH .. your claim that you were not answered is false .. you are the one ignoring what is said and not answring questions .. Now go back to the post you are responding to and do so..

 

[dybmh]

and the meaning of those songs written during that time period such as in Psalm 82

And this one is back too... LOL.

Last time we spoke I copied the entire psalm into a reply and asked you to insert your preferred translation so that we could look to see if there were contradictions. The problem is, the pagan pantheon MUST include contradictions in the way it is translated. I brought evidence of this, coming from a Jewish scholar. It takes a Jewish scholar to show it because, someone who doesn't know the original language will not notice that in verse 6 ( i think ) the pagan pantheon translation has the gods being killed, then in verse 8, the gods are being called to rise up. It's an obvious contradiction. But, the bible critics and so-called scholars who don't *actually* know the language will always fail at this.

And when I pointed this out to you, with screenshots, it appears you ignored that evidence.

in order to deflect from scripture

Well now, you're acting like a hypocrit. You seem to be ignoring anything past Gen 14 in order to assert that Abraham's god was El. And you are also ignoring what is actually written in Psalm 82.

So, what's the deal? Are you going by scripture, or are you ignoring scripure?

 

[dybmh]

Of course El is mentioned again .. and Abraham never starts talking to any God by the name YHWH

No.... I gave you the quoted scripture that has Abe talking to YHWH. I quoted it, color coded it.

.. your claim that you were not answered is false .. you are the one ignoring what is said and not answring questions .. Now go back to the post you are responding to and do so..

OK, I'll go find it.

 

[dybmh]

Of course El is mentioned again .. and Abraham never starts talking to any God by the name YHWH .. your claim that you were not answered is false .. you are the one ignoring what is said and not answring questions .. Now go back to the post you are responding to and do so..

Your answer was, Oh, those are redactions.

So, you ARE ignoring what is written.

Abe does talk to YHWH. El is not mentioned after Gen 14. You are ignoring what's written.

And the idea that I am appealing to athority, when, that's exactly what you're doing here, is laughable.

Anyway, you appear to be shopping around for people to debate with instead of addressing the actual issues like:

Where is evidence for this canaanite God named Zedek? Any actual canaanite tablets speaking of such a god?

 

[Sargonski]

Oh, this is back too.

So, there's a minor issue with the geneology. Thats a so what? There's a fictional claim about a canaante God named Zedek, but no evidence that such a god exists. And two names which hail to a God being righteous. That's not much to go on.

The theory that Zadok is a Jebusite is very weak, the scholar who introduced the idea says so himself. He calls the theory an argument from silence, and since there's no reason for Zadok to be mentioned before he became relevant to he story, the argument from silence fails.

So.... why are you believing that a god named Zedek existed? Is there any actual evidence of this?

Here's a list of the canaanite gods.... No Zedek. Why ignore the simple answer in favor of fringe?

there are multiple geneologies for Zadok .. as discussed in the article presented .. and the only fiction going on here is you .. Zekek not only the name of the God .. but the Patron God of Jerusalem .. your claims to have some subject matter knowledge as bogus as can be .. not even bothering to read the scholarship presented .. which gives the answer to your bleating question "is there actual evidence of this" .. after previous wailing denial that this could be true ..

Where is this list of canaanite Gods .. and what a moronic uneducated statement -- .. Who is the one ignoring the simple answer in favor of the fundamentalist Fringe ??

Tell me What is the Simple answer when the name of two kings in a dynasty are Melchi-Zedek .. and 500 years later Adoni-Zedek

Patron God perhaps ? Yaaahhh . mate that would be the Occam's razor .. "Simple Answer" that the vast and overwhelming majority of Religious denominations and Scholars and Theologians favor. The lunatic Fundi Fringe being the Outsiders .

 

[dybmh]

there are multiple geneologies for Zadok ..

2 geneologies with a minor difference.

as discussed in the article presented .. and the only fiction going on here is you ..

No, it brings no evidence just, hey, these two people have names which say My God is righteous. But if I insert the words [the god] into it... wowie. Now I've created a new god.

Zekek not only the name of the God .. but the Patron God of Jerusalem ..

Nope, that's false. Do you have any *actual* evidence of a canannite god named Zedek?

The name of the place where Malchi-tzedek ruled is Shalem. And scholars don't know where that is.

your claims to have some subject matter knowledge as bogus as can be .. not even bothering to read the scholarship presented

I read it, it says virtually nothing. "Some say Zadok was Jebusite." Um, the person who came up with that theory said it was weak and advised caution to anyone attempting to use it. I'll go find that. The *actual* source. Not this rumor mill garbage on some blog.

.. which gives the answer to your bleating question "is there actual evidence of this" .. after previous wailing denial that this could be true ..

That's a claim, that's not evidence.

Where is this list of canaanite Gods .. and what a moronic uneducated statement --

It's moronic to expect to have actual evidence of a god, before claiming that one existed? In other words you have no evidence this god existed. It's just word for righteous. It's not a god until there's evidence of this god.

.. Who is the one ignoring the simple answer in favor of the fundamentalist Fringe ??

You! You are ignoring the simple meaning of the name Adonizedek and Malchizedek. My God is Righteous. Is the simple translation. My King is Righteous is the simple translation.

My God is [ the god ] Zedek is adding and changing the meaning.
My King is [ the god ] Zedek is adding and changing the meaning.

If you need to ad words and change the meaning to make a point, the argument is W-E-A-K.

Tell me What is the Simple answer when the name of two kings in a dynasty are Melchi-Zedek .. and 500 years later Adoni-Zedek

God is RIGHTEOUS. That's the simple answer.

Patron God perhaps ? Yaaahhh . mate that would be the Occam's razor .. "Simple Answer"

The word means "RIGHTEOUS"

that the vast and overwhelming majority of Religious denominations and Scholars and Theologians favor.

Don't add words that don't exist in the text. Don't manufacture a god without evidence.

The lunatic Fundi Fringe being the Outsiders .

Find me one actual piece of evidence that Zedek is a god, and 1 actual peice of evidence that Shalem is Jerusalem.

If you can't do it, then you're making a leap of faith just like ignoring that El is not mentioned past Gen 14, and pretending that all those references to Yahweh were changed.