Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[Sargonski]

Your answer was, Oh, those are redactions.

So, you ARE ignoring what is written.

Abe does talk to YHWH. El is not mentioned after Gen 14. You are ignoring what's written.

And the idea that I am appealing to athority, when, that's exactly what you're doing here, is laughable.

Anyway, you appear to be shopping around for people to debate with instead of addressing the actual issues like:

Where is evidence for this canaanite God named Zedek? Any actual canaanite tablets speaking of such a god?

Your the one ignoring what is written ... YHWH himself states that Abe did not know any God by that name. You then make up another lie pretending I said you were appealing to authority

Why would you ask for a Canaanite inscription when we have a Hebrew inscription ? Oh .. but that is Canaanite .. right .. as is the Practice of your king taking the Patron God of the City into his name .. and having that tradition repeated on down the line 500 years later.

Thats why "Religious Scholarship" agrees --- U understand ? all but the lunitic fundi fringe

 

[Sargonski]

Nope, that's false. Do you have any *actual* evidence of a canannite god named Zedek?

You were given evidence... Zedek was part of the Canaanite Priest Kings name - what part of "Evidence" were you having trouble understanding ? That Kings of that era named themselves after the Patron God of the City.

Then you were given more evidence .. far stronger than the first .. a second King 500 years later -- having the same name .. and this is also how Sholars know that Salem = Jerusalem .. and for other reasons .. Your claim that there is doubt among serious scholars a complete made up falsehood.

Zedek is said by scholars to be a West Semetic Diety .. and also the name of a Phonecian Deity --- which is very interesting "Evidence"

Still waiting for you to tell me what the purpose of the Male Prostitutes and the Asherah Pole in the worship of YHWH .. Solomon and his people worshiping many Gods .. but we are interested in the worship of YHWH ..

Your claim that El was not mentioned past Gen 14 a complete falsehood .. and you have yet to explain the name by which Abe knew his God. Whats up mate .. What is the name by which Abraham knew his God ..

 

[Brian2]

Of course Deuteronomy was not written by Moses - at least not all of it ... Lest Moses rose from the Dead and wrote about his own death ?

True, but that does not mean that much of Deuteronomy and/or the Pentateuch was written hundreds of years later.
Does it matter what scholars say?

Regardless -- your passages from Deuteronomy does not change the fact that the Israelites were raging Pagans for almost their entire History .. and in fact didn't even have the Book of the Law (what ever that was as we don't know).

Of course they had the Book of the Law. What Josiah found was hidden in the Temple wasn't it? This was to preserve it at a time when it could have been destroyed.
So they had it from the time of Moses up till the time it was hidden.
Having the law and obeying it are 2 different things.

"Satan is a False God" - Not according to the Hebrew Bible .. nor is Azazel a False God -- according to the Hebrew bible.

If YHWH is the only true God then any other god is a false god. No wonder you don't want to address Deut 4:35,39, Deut 32:39.
Explanatory support for all the other gods being false gods.

Abraham does not know any God by the name of YHWH. The God of Abraham is the same God as the Canaanite High Priest Melchizedek - the "Most High" of the Pantheon .. which was EL -- same God as over in Abrahams home town of Ur .. Elil -- by a slightly different name .. which was common in those days .. Zedek -- the Patron God of Melchizedek .. related to Elil .. part of the Circle of Friendly Deities in this Canaanite Town .. Of whome which many of Abe's descendants were related . geneticly linked if you will .. and the language that Abe adopts - indistinguishable from Canaanite if you go back far enough.

MelchiZedek is both Priest and King ... something Verbotten to the Israelites by the YHWH .. a good inovation that one .. full marks for YHWH on this front .. separating religion from State .. or at least the beginnings .. but - I digress.

Priest Kings of the Day would normally have one God or another attached to their name .. so nothing Unusual here and certainly not Priest Kings of Jerusalem .. some 500 years later the King is still named after the Patron God Zedek . in a town named for Peace or some such thing wasn't it . The Zedek diety(s) .. the god(s) of Truth and Justice .. Righteousness ..

One thing we can say for sure is that this Priestly line endured for some 500 years at Jerusalem ... or should we say Priestly Order .. when David showed up and took over. but, did not end the order .. rather did submit to the Order ... EL Zedek .. so it is written .. So it was done ..

ADONI-ZEDEK (Heb. אֲדֹנִי צֶדֶק; "[the god] Zedek [the god of justice] is lord" or, "my Lord is righteousness"), king of *Jerusalem at the time of the Israelite conquest of Canaan (Josh. 10:1–3).

In the Bible, Melchizedek (/mɛlˈkɪzədɛk/,[1] Biblical Hebrew: מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק‎, romanized: malkī-ṣeḏeq, "king of righteousness" or "my king is righteousness"), also transliterated Melchisedech or Malki Tzedek, was the king of Salem and priest of El Elyon (often translated as "most high God"). He is first mentioned in Genesis 14:18–20,[2] where he brings out bread and wine and then blesses Abram and El Elyon.

Melchizedel was priest of El Elyon (God Most High) Abraham's God.
I don't know if Zedek was a god or not, that idea is speculation.
Certainly in Psalm 110 the one who judges the nations is a priest in the way of Melchizedek. (Priest of God most High, recognised by Abraham, so appointed by God )
The one who judges the nations is the Messiah, Jesus.

Thanks for the meaning of Melchizedek and info about Adonizedek, it reminded me of Jesus and Judah and Jerusalem being called "The LORD our righteousness"
Jer 23:5Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and He will reign wisely as King and will administer justice and righteousness in the land. 6In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is His name by which He will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.
(aldso see Jer 33:16).
Sounds related to me.

Some Scholarship for you "Was Zadok a Jebusite" ?

Was Zadok a Jebusite?

A few days ago, Fencekicker at Journal of Heresies, in response to my post on the Religious Syncretism in Israel and Judah, asked the reason I believe Zadok was a Jebusite. Since it was difficult t…

claudemariottini.com

and all those other people David left in Jerusalem to live among the Israelites - Solomon built Temples -- for them to worship their Gods ... but never mind those Temples .. what about the Temple of YHWH .. what did that look like Brian care to tell me about the Temple .. since you are such a Bible Scholar .. what was the purpose of the Male and Female Prostitutes .. and the Ashrah pole .. and that High Place out back ..

I read that Zadok served as priest at Gibeon but was a Levite.
From this site: Zadok - Wikipedia
Zadok (or Zadok HaKohen, also spelled Ṣadok, Ṣadoc,[1] Zadoq, Tzadok, or Tsadoq; Hebrew: צָדוֹק הַכֹּהֵן, meaning "Righteous, Justified") was a Kohen (priest), biblically recorded to be a descendant from Eleazar the son of Aaron.[2] He was the High Priest of Israel during the reigns of David and Solomon.[3] He aided King David during the revolt of his son Absalom, was subsequently instrumental in bringing Solomon to the throne and officiated at Solomon's coronation. After Solomon's building of the First Temple in Jerusalem, Zadok was the first High Priest to serve there.[4]
The prophet Ezekiel extols the sons of Zadok as staunch opponents of paganism during the era of pagan worship, and indicates their birthright to unique duties and privileges in the future temple.[5]

But yes the disobedience of Israel probably led to idols and prostitutes etc in the Temple of Yahweh.

 

[Sargonski]

True, but that does not mean that much of Deuteronomy and/or the Pentateuch was written hundreds of years later.
Does it matter what scholars say?



Of course they had the Book of the Law. What Josiah found was hidden in the Temple wasn't it? This was to preserve it at a time when it could have been destroyed.
So they had it from the time of Moses up till the time it was hidden.
Having the law and obeying it are 2 different things.



If YHWH is the only true God then any other god is a false god. No wonder you don't want to address Deut 4:35,39, Deut 32:39.
Explanatory support for all the other gods being false gods.



ADONI-ZEDEK (Heb. אֲדֹנִי צֶדֶק; "[the god] Zedek [the god of justice] is lord" or, "my Lord is righteousness"), king of *Jerusalem at the time of the Israelite conquest of Canaan (Josh. 10:1–3).

In the Bible, Melchizedek (/mɛlˈkɪzədɛk/,[1] Biblical Hebrew: מַלְכִּי־צֶדֶק‎, romanized: malkī-ṣeḏeq, "king of righteousness" or "my king is righteousness"), also transliterated Melchisedech or Malki Tzedek, was the king of Salem and priest of El Elyon (often translated as "most high God"). He is first mentioned in Genesis 14:18–20,[2] where he brings out bread and wine and then blesses Abram and El Elyon.

Melchizedel was priest of El Elyon (God Most High) Abraham's God.
I don't know if Zedek was a god or not, that idea is speculation.
Certainly in Psalm 110 the one who judges the nations is a priest in the way of Melchizedek. (Priest of God most High, recognised by Abraham, so appointed by God )
The one who judges the nations is the Messiah, Jesus.

Thanks for the meaning of Melchizedek and info about Adonizedek, it reminded me of Jesus and Judah and Jerusalem being called "The LORD our righteousness"
Jer 23:5Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and He will reign wisely as King and will administer justice and righteousness in the land. 6In His days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is His name by which He will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.
(aldso see Jer 33:16).
Sounds related to me.



I read that Zadok served as priest at Gibeon but was a Levite.
From this site: Zadok - Wikipedia
Zadok (or Zadok HaKohen, also spelled Ṣadok, Ṣadoc,[1] Zadoq, Tzadok, or Tsadoq; Hebrew: צָדוֹק הַכֹּהֵן, meaning "Righteous, Justified") was a Kohen (priest), biblically recorded to be a descendant from Eleazar the son of Aaron.[2] He was the High Priest of Israel during the reigns of David and Solomon.[3] He aided King David during the revolt of his son Absalom, was subsequently instrumental in bringing Solomon to the throne and officiated at Solomon's coronation. After Solomon's building of the First Temple in Jerusalem, Zadok was the first High Priest to serve there.[4]
The prophet Ezekiel extols the sons of Zadok as staunch opponents of paganism during the era of pagan worship, and indicates their birthright to unique duties and privileges in the future temple.[5]

But yes the disobedience of Israel probably led to idols and prostitutes etc in the Temple of Yahweh.

Look "Does it matter what Scholars say?" -- What kind of a question is this -- is this some kind of license to disbelieve anything that conflicts with some man made dogma you ingested and/or you were force fed ..

Not just Scholars --- but Theologians - History - Biblical Archaeology --- agree that most of Deuteronomy was either written and/or redacted ~ 500BC

Traditional narrative

According to traditional rabbinic sources, Deuteronomy was written by Moses in the last days of his life. The book itself does not claim to be written by Moses (see here), although it does claim to be the speech of Moses. Critical scholarship argues against both ideas: Moses didn’t write Deuteronomy and neither did he utter its words. More liberal voices in rabbinic texts believe the last 8 verses of Deuteronomy to be post-Mosaic,[1] while others even advocate for more verses being written after Moses’ times.[2] But the traditional narrative is based on one sole line of reasoning: tradition.

The Composition of Deuteronomy: When it was Written - Jewish Belief Reimagined

Overview: Exploring various elements in the dating of Deuteronomy. Showing both sides of the aisle in the research of Deuteronomy’s laws, language, and theology in attempt to date the book....

jewishbelief.com

Further .. the Author of Deuteronomy is NOT the author of Exodus- Leviticus - Genesis .. but we not need to get into textual criticism here . All one needs to understand is that the Bible was written my many authors over a lengthy period of time .. that we have different "Traditions" .. sometimes separated by many Centuries .. spliced together.

So within the same Book .. even the same chapter ... you can have different traditions .. Such as in Genesis .. where you have two separate creation stories that are different from and contradict each other .. In one story .. YHWH does not appear anywhere. You can tell the different tradition by the word used for God. "God" is the older Tradition "Lord" is the new tradition

So when you see Lord -- the actual Hebrew word is "YHWH" .. the Name of the God of Moses
When you see "GOD" --- the name YHWH is not used .. .. a different name for "God" is used El Elyon "God Most High" .. is rendered "God" -- EL Shaddai ... is rendered "God" and so on.

It is clear there are two different sources .. one is Called the (E) source - the other the (J) source .. Elohist and Jahwist .. called this for the obvious reason explained above .. one sorce uses Yahweh ... the other source uses Elohim and verious other epiphets of EL for the name of God.

Other factors are also used to identify one source from another -- Anachronisms for example .. Abraham is said to come from "Ur of the Chaldeans" --- but there would be no Chaldeans for 1000 years. Abe is portrayed as having Camels which would not be domesticated for another 1000 years. .. but someone writing 1300 years after Abraham .. would not know this.

You have different traditions -- different covenants .. the Covenant with Abe is different than that with Moses.

This is not to reject the (J) tradition all together as some kind of fabrication - not at all .. the authors could well have used documents or oral tradition from the time of Abraham .. so the story may well have a basis in real events .. just that in trying to tell the story - piece together the religious history from the material available - the redactor feeling that more explanation of where Abraham was From .. which the Redactor knew was "Ur" having a much fuller knowledge of Abraham than we will ever have .. distinguished the location by putting in "Ur of the Chaldeans" -- This is not artistic liscence .. this is not Pious Fraud .. nothing of the sort -- this is the author trying to accurately describe to the reader what City Abraham came out of. .. and just because Ur was not called Ur of the Chaldeans at the time of Abraham .. does not change the fact that Abe came from Ur .. its just that this particular insertion was written 500 BC rather than 1800 BC - and just uses a different name for the same place.

This is also true for the insertion of YHWH into the Time of Abraham -- There were no traditions that talked about the Cult of YHWH - least none that Abe knew of - at the time of Abraham .. We are told by YHWH --- that Abe did not know of any cult of YHWH .. never heard of the guy .. The Bible does not know of any YHWH cult until Moses - There were no documents had by those putting the Hebrew Bible together - using the name YHWH for God. "FULL STOP" if we are to believe the God YHWH. and if not .. then God YHWH was lying.. when stating .. that the ancestors of Moses did not know the name YHWH ..

Further .. Moses does not know the name YHWH -- never heard of this YHWH God.. or his Cult .. has to ask God "What shall I call you" .. who shall I tell the people I am sent buy ....

Nobody in the story prior to this has ever heard of YHWH. YHWH cult may well have existed in the Land of the Midianites --- but none of the Israelites in our story have ever worshiped a God by this name.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Further .. Moses does not know the name YHWH -- never heard of this YHWH God.. or his Cult .. has to ask God "What shall I call you" .. who shall I tell the people I am sent buy ....

Nobody in the story prior to this has ever heard of YHWH. YHWH cult may well have existed in the Land of the Midianites --- but none of the Israsraelites were ignorantall knowe that the Ielites in our story have ever worshiped a God by this name.

..so what's your point?
I thought we all knew that the Israelites were ignorant before Moses came along..
..and even after that, too.

Don't forget, there was no internet .. no books.

 

[dybmh]

Your the one ignoring what is written ... YHWH himself states that Abe did not know any God by that name. You then make up another lie pretending I said you were appealing to authority

Nopey-nope. You did accuse me with apeal to authority, precisely at this same juncture when I brought the reason that people misunderstand Exo. 6:3. Yahweh did not tell Abe that he did not know any god by that name. That's a misquote. It doesn't say "any god". You are adding and changing the meaning.

As I stated, the meaning is, no one knew YHWH by its reputation. And thats true, until the Jewish people were freed, and YHWH had executed the plagues showing that all of natures forces were subservient to it, and then revelaed itself "ANOCHI YHWH" which is what was said at Sinai and means "I am the one and only YHWH"... yeah, no one actually knew YHWH by it's reputation, and by what the name means.

the definition of Reputation .. and what a desperate Appeal to Authority Fallacy == "Listen to Jewish Commentators" coupled with generalization fallacy ..as if one commentator represents all of them

All it needs is one who knows the actual language. The verse says: "לא נודעתי" and not "לא הודעתי". The former with the nun-prefix, a nifal verb form, and the later with a hei-prefix, the hifal verb form.

The way it is written, the name itself is not the subject of the verb.

But, BTW, Ibn Ezra agrees, but instead focuses on the vav in another word.

Soforno also agrees: here's his explaination. He focuses on the letter bet.

ושמי ה' לא נודעתי להם, the letter ב in the expression בא-ל שדי applies to the word ושמי. In effect what G’d is saying is that He has not made a point of becoming familiar to the patriarchs by His attribute Hashem when appearing to them, such as in the example mentioned. This was because He never experienced the need to change the laws of nature on their behalf. Seeing that the patriarchs could not have passed on knowledge about Me which I had not revealed to them, they in turn had not been able to pass on such knowledge to their children. I have to do this now in order to ensure that I can preserve the Children of Israel as My people.​

The Ohr HaChayim has an interesting elaboration, while at the same time agreeing:

G'd also meant that the patriarchs were not aware of the unique simultaneous effectiveness of both of G'd's attributes, as we mentioned in connection with verse two. The mystical dimension of this is recorded in Kings I 18,39 when the assembled people realised this after Eliyahu's demonstration on Mount Carmel. The prophet Zachariah also makes reference to this phenomenon in Zachariah 14,9 when he describes that in the futre והיה ה׳ אחד ושמו אחד, people will realise that in spite of G'd's many attributes these are all part of the same Essence. G'd's name and G'd's Essence will be perceived as an indivisible unit, unlike all creatures whose names do not necessarily reflect anything about their essence. It was inappropriate for G'd to say לא הודעתי, "I have not made known," since it was G'd's "name" who was speaking. This is why the Torah had to write: לא נודעתי "I have not become known."​

So, it's more than just one commentator, and it relies on knowing the language. And this makes sense because, obviously if someone was insterting YHWH, they would not leave such an HUGE contradiction.

Why would you ask for a Canaanite inscription when we have a Hebrew inscription ?

Since there aren't canaanite inscriptions of Zedek as a god, and there aren't hebrew inscriptions of Zedek as a god, I'm asking because you're talking about something that has ZERO evidence.

Oh .. but that is Canaanite .. right .. as is the Practice of your king taking the Patron God of the City into his name ..

Ummmmm, adoni-zedek was not israelite, so, no. not my king.

and having that tradition repeated on down the line 500 years later.

wrong country, wrong people, garbage in, garbage out.

Thats why "Religious Scholarship" agrees --- U understand ? all but the lunitic fundi fringe

You mean, a blog-post? If I have the patience I'll detail for the actual reason some people come to this conclusion. And then I'll show you how weak it is. But for now, I'll say, bring actual reasons for this conclusion, not just: "Here's some person who says so, and I beleive them, cause Schoooooolershipage."

 

[dybmh]

This is also true for the insertion of YHWH into the Time of Abraham

So they inserted YHWH, how many, 50 times in the story of Abe? And they didn't remove the, how many, 5 occurances of El, to make it consistent? They went through all that effort, but didn't remove the others? Why?

How does that theory make any sense?

Nobody in the story prior to this has ever heard of YHWH. YHWH cult may well have existed in the Land of the Midianites --- but none of the Israelites in our story have ever worshiped a God by this name.

And? So what? Why does there NEED to be YHWH cult at this point in the story?

Remember an argument from silence is ONLY viable if there is a necessary reason to include a YHWH cult, and it is missing.

 

[dybmh]

The Composition of Deuteronomy: When it was Written - Jewish Belief Reimagined

Overview: Exploring various elements in the dating of Deuteronomy. Showing both sides of the aisle in the research of Deuteronomy’s laws, language, and theology in attempt to date the book....

jewishbelief.com

When was this written? Before or after the documentary hypothesis lost it's concensus and crashed?

Who wrote it?

Is there anything that gives this credibility other than the word "Jewish" in the URL?

It appears to be another blog. You like bloggy-schoolership?

 

[Sargonski]

When was this written? Before or after the documentary hypothesis lost it's concensus and crashed?

Who wrote it?

Is there anything that gives this credibility other than the word "Jewish" in the URL?

It appears to be another blog. You like bloggy-schoolership?

The doc hypothesis in general has neither lost consensus nor crashed . you keep making things up .. and giving no support for these ridiculous naked claims .. and have no idea what scholarship is .. never mind providing. Instead of addressing the material presented you engage in Ad hom fallacy and name calling.

Answer the question --- What was the name by which Abraham knew his God ? and it don't take the Doc Hypothesis to show that there are different sources .. some written long after the time of Abraham.

and tell me what was the purpose of the male Prostitutes and the asherah Pole in YHWH's temple.

 

[Sargonski]

So they inserted YHWH, how many, 50 times in the story of Abe? And they didn't remove the, how many, 5 occurances of El, to make it consistent? They went through all that effort, but didn't remove the others? Why?

How does that theory make any sense?



And? So what? Why does there NEED to be YHWH cult at this point in the story?

Remember an argument from silence is ONLY viable if there is a necessary reason to include a YHWH cult, and it is missing.

"Why does there need to be a cult of YHWH" prior to Moses --- a laughable argument from silence.

There doesn't need to be a cult of YHWH prior to Moses .. and in fact there wasn't according to YHWH.

So what is the name by which Abraham knew his God ... given he knew not the name YHWH ..

Asked you this question 5 times now .. what is your problem ? Your the one claiming YHWH was the God of MelchiZedek "My God is Zedek" Patron God of Jerusalem .. back up your claim and show us the name by which Abe knew his God.

and prior to you crying out of ignorance "Salem was not Jerusalem" having no idea what you are talking about. Here is what the Bible has to say in the footnotes.

Psalm 110:4 sn The Davidic king’s priestly role is analogous to that of Melchizedek, who was both “king of Salem” (i.e., Jerusalem) and a “priest of God Most High” in the time of Abraham (Gen 14:18-20).

 

[muhammad_isa]

Answer the question --- What was the name by which Abraham knew his God ?

It's likely that Abraham spoke more than one language, such as Assyrian and Aramaic.

I doubt whether Abraham called God, Dieu or Gott

 

[dybmh]

The doc hypothesis in general has neither lost consensus nor crashed .

Sure it has, I gave you link before with screenshots. The notion of dividing up the OT based on divine names is a complete fail.

you keep making things up .. and giving no support for these ridiculous naked claims ..

Documentary hypothesis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

and have no idea what scholarship is .. never mind providing. Instead of addressing the material presented you engage in Ad hom fallacy and name calling.

Blah-blah

So who wrote those bloggy-schoolershipy essays you posted? When were they written? Are you ever going to bring any evidence of this god Zedek you are convinced exists. Evidence beyond, "Here's blog about it."

Answer the question --- What was the name by which Abraham knew his God ?

יהוה

Gen 14:22

​

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃​

​

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, the el-elyon, the possessor of heaven and earth,​

See what happened there? Malchi-tzedek speaks about El-Elyon, and Abe corrects him.


Gen 15:6-8

​

והאמן ביהוה ויחשבה לו צדקה׃​

And he believed in יהוה and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

​

ויאמר אליו אני יהוה אשר הוצאתיך מאור כשדים לתת לך את־הארץ הזאת לרשתה׃​

And he said to him, I am יהוה who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it.​

​

ויאמר אדני יהוה במה אדע כי אירשנה׃​

And he said, Lord יהוה, how shall I know that I shall inherit it?​

Abraham believed in YHVH
YHVH said: "I am YHVH"
Abraham answered "Lord YHVH, how...."

and it don't take the Doc Hypothesis to show that there are different sources .. some written long after the time of Abraham.

Written from earlier sources.... TAQ, Termimus ad quem, any estimate of compilation is the latest beginning.

​

The general trend in recent scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, likely completed during the Persian period (539–333 BCE)​

From the previous link. Below is zoomed in so you will be sure to read it:​

​

​

​

See here: Dating the Bible - Wikipedia

​

and tell me what was the purpose of the male Prostitutes and the asherah Pole in YHWH's temple.

King Solomon had issues, and so did the Jewish people. It's a negative role model.

Now, are you actually going to provide some evidence of this god Zedek? If all you have is Malchi-tzedek, long before the israelites. And adoni-tzedek who is not an israelite. And some idea that the patron god is included in the name of the city, like Beth-El, but Zedek isn't in the name Yirushalayim ( Not Jerusalem ). You've got nothing.

From your bloggy-source:

According to the book of Genesis, Melchizedek king of Jerusalem.​

​

No.... that's wrong. Here's what it actually says:

ומלכי־צדק מלך שלם הוציא לחם ויין והוא כהן לאל עליון׃​

And Melchizedek king of Shalem ( שלם ) brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the most high God.​

​

ואלה נולדו־לו בירושלים שמעא ושובב ונתן ושלמה ארבעה לבת־שוע בת־עמיאל׃​

And these were born to him in Yirushalayim ( ירושלים ): Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon; four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel:​

​

Yirushalayim =/= Shalem
שלם =/= ירושלים

​

Anyone can see this.

And then it goes further:

​

The meaning of the name Melchizedek is “My King is [the god] Zedek.”​

​

The meaning of the name Adonizedek is “My Lord is [the god] Zedek."​

Um. Do you know how stupid this is?

Here, I can play this game too.

Here's what Gen 14 actually says ( using this same absurd logic )

​

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃​

​

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, [NOT TO] El Elyon, the possessor of heaven and earth,​

See that? That's amazing! Your bloggy-schooler can add words, then I can add words too! Weeeeeee. Isn't this fun? Well, there goes your theory. And it's all thanks to the bloogy-schillership of adding words to the text.

 

[Sargonski]

It's likely that Abraham spoke more than one language, such as Assyrian and Aramaic.

I doubt whether Abraham called God, Dieu or Gott

I doubt that as well .. for the God of Abraham was EL - El the "Most High" "El Elyon" Chief God on Earth and head of the Divine Council .. Council of EL --- to all peoples in the Region including Abe and everyone else in the Story up to this point.

Nobody in the story thus far heard of Yahu

 

[dybmh]

"Why does there need to be a cult of YHWH" prior to Moses --- a laughable argument from silence.

Your the one who brought it up as if it was somehow relevant.

There doesn't need to be a cult of YHWH prior to Moses .. and in fact there wasn't according to YHWH.

Then why bring it up.

So what is the name by which Abraham knew his God ... given he knew not the name YHWH ..

Sure he did, he said it TO MALCHI-TZEDEK and corrected him using YHWH.

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃
And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, [NOT TO] El Elyon, the possessor of heaven and earth,

Why does Exodus 6:3 have the word for not-knowing with the NUN-prefix?

Asked you this question 5 times now .. what is your problem ? Your the one claiming YHWH was the God of MelchiZedek "My God is Zedek" Patron God of Jerusalem .. back up your claim and show us the name by which Abe knew his God.

I have answered. Multiple times. You just keep denying and proclaiming your faith.

and prior to you crying out of ignorance "Salem was not Jerusalem" having no idea what you are talking about. Here is what the Bible has to say in the footnotes.

Oh! The bible is a credible source? I guess that sinks your Zadok theory. Zadok is defined in the bible as a levite.

 

[dybmh]

I doubt that as well .. for the God of Abraham was EL - El the "Most High" "El Elyon" Chief God on Earth and head of the Divine Council .. Council of EL --- to all peoples in the Region including Abe and everyone else in the Story up to this point.

Nobody in the story thus far heard of Yahu

Nope, Abe corrected Malchi-tzedek and used the name YHWH. Abe also spoke to YHWH, and used that name.

So you desire to make up your own bible story or listen to bloogers and youtube-preachers, but, none of that is actual evidence of anything.

 

[Sargonski]

Sure it has, I gave you link before with screenshots. The notion of dividing up the OT based on divine names is a complete fail.

Not a complete fail at all .. There are clearly different sources .. the disagreement is about when who where. What is laughable is you post a Wiki cut out -- claiming the documentary hypothesis has collapsed .. but have no idea what you are reading ... nor any understanding of what you have posted

1) The "Classical - Hypothesis" has collapsed .. which doesn't mean these folks do not see different sources .. the debate is over the time - authorship and so on.

-- The consensus around the classical documentary hypothesis has now collapsed.[5] This was triggered in large part by the influential publications of John Van Seters, Hans Heinrich Schmid, and Rolf Rendtorff in the mid-1970s,[7] who argued that J was to be dated no earlier than the time of the Babylonian captivity (597–539 BCE),[8] and rejected the existence of a substantial E source.[9] They also called into question the nature and extent of the three other sources. Van Seters, Schmid, and Rendtorff shared many of the same criticisms of the documentary hypothesis, but were not in complete agreement about what paradigm ought to replace it.[7] As a result, there has been a revival of interest in "fragmentary" and "supplementary" models, frequently in combination with each other and with a documentary model,

So These guys are saying that nothing is dated earlier than 600 BC -- which completely contradicts your claim that the source documents were Earlier.

So - according to "David Carr" -- the source you are quoting .. Genesis was written after the captivity ~ 538 - 330 BC... I agree completely that Genesis was probably redacted and edited around this time Which is why you have YHWH in place of God in one tradition.. where in another Tradition you have all the various epiphets of EL .. and the Personal Name of EL in other places

So .. thank you for making my case for me .. Not so high marks on not sinking in the first time round .. as I told you this previously "Classical" is one of a number of doc hypothesis mate .. and finally .. what part of there has been a revival of interest in fragmentary and supplementary models "frequently in combination with each other and with a "Documentary Model" did you fail to read .. or to understand ?

A Failing Grade for you I am Afraid. .. so many of your claims turn out to be complete falsehood. .. have you figured out who Zadok is yet ? and what is the name by which Abraham knows his God ?

 

[dybmh]

Not a complete fail at all .. There are clearly different sources .. the disagreement is about when who where. What is laughable is you post a Wiki cut out -- claiming the documentary hypothesis has collapsed .. but have no idea what you are reading ... nor any understanding of what you have posted

No. The DH is all about making distinctions based on the different nams of God. That's what YOU'RE doing inspite of the fact that this method has proven to be a complete fail.

1) The "Classical - Hypothesis" has collapsed .. which doesn't mean these folks do not see different sources .. the debate is over the time - authorship and so on.

There is no Elohist source. It's all the same God. If you are actually interested in scholarhship, it's time to adapt and move on

So These guys are saying that nothing is dated earlier than 600 BC -- which completely contradicts your claim that the source documents were Earlier.

No...... 600BC is the latest beginning. Latest. L-A-T-E-S-T. Say it with me, Latest. Good. That's what it says in the screenshot. Here, I'll zoom in for you.

That is how archeological and history works. This makes sense. Seriously Think about it. Someone finds evidence for something. What are the odds that they found the first earliest occurance of what ever that thing is? Ummmmm, virtually ZERO.

So, if I'm digging in my back yard and I find an arrow-head, and I get that arrow-head dated to 400CE. There's probably earlier arowheads, but this is the latest beginning for which that I have evidence.

So - according to "David Carr" -- the source you are quoting .. Genesis was written after the captivity ~ 538 - 330 BC... I agree completely that Genesis was probably redacted and edited around this time Which is why you have YHWH in place of God in one tradition.. where in another Tradition you have all the various epiphets of EL .. and the Personal Name of EL in other places

Ummmmm, 5 occurances of El, is not a tradition especially when one of those occurances is Abe correcting Malchi-tzedek.

So .. thank you for making my case for me .. Not so high marks on not sinking in the first time round .. as I told you this previously "Classical" is one of a number of doc hypothesis mate .. and finally .. what part of there has been a revival of interest in fragmentary and supplementary models "frequently in combination with each other and with a "Documentary Model" did you fail to read .. or to understand ?

I understand that El is a common name for divine power. And that is easily confirmed. I also understand that you ignore the overwheling majority of occurances of YHWH in order to tickle yourself with the notion that Abe's God was identical to the canaanite god.

A Failing Grade for you I am Afraid.

From you? why would I care? I wouldn't want to agree with you. You don't know the language your pretending to be a scholar of. And repeatedly misinforming people, "Oh, btw, everytime the bible says God, it's talking about EL", even though the bible is much more specific than that, and you'd never know.

.. so many of your claims turn out to be complete falsehood.

Nope. All true. The name of the place in Gen 14 is Shalem. The name of the capital city in Israel is Yirushalayim. HUGE difference.

The verb in Exodus 6:3 is reflexive, so, the subject is not the name which is unknown.

Adoni-zedek is not an israelite king

There is no evidence for the god zedek, anyway.

.. have you figured out who Zadok is yet ?

A levite priest.

and what is the name by which Abraham knows his God ?

YHWH.

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃
And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, [NOT TO] El Elyon, the possessor of heaven and earth,

 

[dybmh]

@Sargonski ,

If you want to do a name analysis, on zedek, to see if it is significant, the best place to do that is in Chronicles.

In the first 9 chapters there are over 600 names. Guess how many include Tzedek? 3. Wow. If this was the "patron god", of Jerusalem, Yirushalayim, why wasn't anyone naming their children with that name? It's almost as if, this god doesn't exist.

 

[Sargonski]

..so what's your point?
I thought we all knew that the Israelites were ignorant before Moses came along..
..and even after that, too.

Don't forget, there was no internet .. no books.

"I thought" -- was perhaps your first mistake - the second was the vocalization. Why would you claim the Israelites were "Ignorant" .... Ignorant of what ? and what does this have to do with the fact that you don't know the name of your God ?

The Israelites knew the name of the Gods they worshiped .. despite having no books or internet .. is the point

So .. who is the "Ignorant" one here Muhamu ? Who is the one that is ignorant of the name of the God he claims to worship ?

 

[Sargonski]

@Sargonski ,

If you want to do a name analysis, on zedek, to see if it is significant, the best place to do that is in Chronicles.

In the first 9 chapters there are over 600 names. Guess how many include Tzedek? 3. Wow. If this was the "patron god", of Jerusalem, Yirushalayim, why wasn't anyone naming their children with that name? It's almost as if, this god doesn't exist.

That is a horrible suggestion .. thre is no name analysis in Chronicles .. they can't even get the lineage right .. desperate to fit our good Zadok into the picture .. a Priest who was ot an Israelite .. so no relation to what Chronicles Claims.

Your claim that there was no Sedek among Canaanite Gods turned out to be completely false.

Sydyk (Συδυκ, in some manuscripts Sydek or Sedek) was the name of a deity appearing in a theogeny provided by Roman-era Phoenician writer Philo of Byblos in an account preserved by Eusebius in his Praeparatio evangelica and attributed to the still earlier Sanchuniathon.[1]

Etymology and role in the Phoenician theogeny​

Philo of Byblos gave the Greek meaning of the name as Δίκαιον "Righteousness", thus indicating that the word corresponds to the Semitic root for "righteousness", √ṣdq. A Phoenician god named ṣdq is well attested epigraphically; he is also mentioned by Philo as half of a pair of deities with Misor (Μισωρ). Sydyk and Misor are described as being born from Amunos and Magos, who were in turn born from the "Wanderers" or Titans. Sydyk is described as the father of the "Dioskouroi or Kabeiroi or Korybants or Samothracians", who are credited with the invention of the ship.[2]

The Phoenician Sydyk was equated with Roman Jupiter, and hence it has been suggested that Sydyk was connected to the worship of the planet Jupiter as the manifestation of justice or righteousness Sydyk - Wikipedia