Why do Christians accuse other religions of believing in false prophets?

[dybmh]

Doubling down on the raging pile of mindless diversion from reality. Abe never says "YHWH" - according to "YHWH"

Sure Abe says the name. Many times. You are simply using a poor translation of Exodus 6:3. The NIV does a good jib with it. The name was known. YHVH wasn't fully known.

Genesis 12:8: "And he moved from there to the mountain east of Bethel and pitched his tent, with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east; there he built an altar to YHVH and called on the name of YHVH."​

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Genesis 13:4: "to the place of the altar which he had made there at first. And there Abram called on the name of YHVH."​

​

Genesis 15:2: "But Abram said, 'Lord YHVH, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?'"​

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Genesis 15:8: "And he said, 'Lord YHVH, how shall I know that I will inherit it?'"​

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Genesis 18:27: "Then Abraham answered and said, 'Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to YHVH.'"​

​

Genesis 24:7-8: And Abraham said to him, Beware that you bring not my son there again. YHVH God of heaven, who took me from my father’s house, and from the land of my family, and who spoke to me, and who swore to me, saying, To your seed will I give this land; he shall send his angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there.​

and there is little difference between El Elyon "Most High" -- and the interpretation "Supreme one"

Flippy-floppy. Sometimes you want to be so very strict with the translation. And other times, "Oh, there's no real diffence..."

.. as Both are referring to El .. epithets of EL

No, because again, the word is actually Ail. And Ail is not EL, the same way that Dan is not Don. And those epithets don't actually match up either. YHWH is not a bull. YHWH is not "THE FATHER". YHWH is the God of my fathers. But, that's different. YOU can't tell the difference, but that doesn't mean they're the same.
.

.. the Most High God of the Canaanite Priest MelchiZedek . Zedek being the patron God of Salem.

No.... you're talking about Sydyk, and the name of the town is Shalem. And if you want to make that kind of claim, it's compounding assumptions.

Sydyk >>> Tzedek is a 60% match
Malchi-Tzedek >>> My King is the god Tzedek is a 50% match

Sydyk >>> patron god of Shalem is 50% of 60%. That's a 30% match.

You then cry that Sydyk is different from Zedek ..

It is. Anyone can see that.

which in this case .. is preposterously false nonsense on Steriods .. Sydyk is the God of Justice and Righteousness ..

So what?

as is Zedek

No, zedek is just a word, not a name. You want it to be a name. But that's fringe. You're just sore because, I demnaded you find evidence that this god existed, and when you did, we find that it's a totally different name, and the theory about Malchi-tzedek is not mainstream.

Sydyk - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

.. Phoenician God = Canaaanite God .. perhaps do a quick Geography Check .. see how far Tyre is from Jerusalem ...

Again, your reducing precision to exaggerate a point. Canaanite is a general term. There were a lot of "canaanite" gods. Canaanite is a large region. And the semetic word tzedek also is a simple word. You're acting like it MUST-MUST be a god's name as if your enthusiasm enhances the argument.

If that was intended, the name would be Malchi-Sydyk. Then you could make an argument. And it probably wouldn't be fringey.

Of course Zadok is a Canaanite Priest

"Of course" isn't an argument.

.. he was Priest in Jerusalem prior to David taking over.

And he was a LEVITE priest taking over.

The King's name was Adoni-Zedek

Let me make his very big, since you keep missing it.

.. "My Lord is Zedek"

My righeous Lord.

Again, this is in the wiki-article you brought on Sydyk.

This Priestly Order was carried down from MelchiZedek to AdoniZedek

Do you have any evidence AdoniTzedek was a priest?

500 Years .

Eve if you're right, listen to yourself. 2 people, and only 2 people in 500 years, and you're making certain claims?

Zadok being the High Priest when David took over.

So what? The name speaks to righeousness, and that's what he was known for.

How is the Priestly Order transferred onto David .. if not through Zadok .

The priestly order is not transferred onto David.

is there some other High Priest of Zedek that I missed ?

There are no high-priests of Zedek.

Hoplessly lost is your position .. your Claim that MelchiZedek has nothing to do with Abraham

No.... I said that just because Malchi-tzedek's god was Ail-Elyon, that does not mean that Abe's god was Ail-Elyon, and certainly not EL, because,

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,

.. a mindless falsehood on steroids .. one you are aware of .. yet utter anyway. .. these are lessons from the dark side .. this behavoir ... indicative of "Thought Stopping" .. had some SMCT - been used - doing a little implantation into the subconscious.

No, I simply know the language much much better than you. I apply some critical thinking, and do little math on the odds that your theory is correct.

13% odd you have a match trying to make Zadok a pagan priest.

 

[dybmh]

No compounding of assumptions at all .. and let us not pretend to have some accumen in math/statistics .. nor logic.

I'm very good with math and logic. Yes, the Zadok was a pagan priest relies on a chain of assumptions, each one compounding the lack of liklihood that you're correct. And it's not a mainstream theory anyway.

The claim that Abe's god was EL, is nothing more than an argument from ignorance IF, big IF, Exodus 6:3 says what you want it to say. But it doesn't.

Then we have more made up false accusation in the form of Strawman Fallacy --- "Israel did not have Priest Kings" - I never claimed they did.

You are the one who made tried to make a connection to priest-kings. Not me. I agree it's completely irrelevant, and I'm not sure why you brought it up.

Why is it you have to make things up about others .. when your position is crucified.

My position is rock solid. Abe is using the name YWHW many times.
Experts in the Hebrew language agree that Exodus 6:3 means the name YHVH was indeed known to Abe
The NIV, an actually well respected bible translation agrees.
A peer reviewed theological scholar agrees.
The only real reason to think Abe worshpped EL comes from the DH, which asserted 4 sources all based on different divine names. But, that theory has collapsed. There never were these 4 distinct sources. So, there is no real reaons to think Abe worshiped EL.

You have brought nothing and no one to address the problems of your interpretation choice which: 1) adds words to the verse 2) ignores the reflexive form of the verb 3) ignores the "bet prefix" 4) ignores the "vav prefix". You need to bring something to support your position. If such a thing exists.

Regarding Zadok, my position is also rock solid.
There is no real reason to think Zadok is anything other than a Levite priest.
Making Zedek into the name of a god doesn't make sense in context when the word is used.
The actual name is Sydyk, and making that into Zedek is simply reducing precision to force a desired conclusion. Putting the cart before the horse.
Neither Adoni-Tzedek nor Malchi-tzedek are Israelites, so, who really cares hat their god are any way. It's irrelevant.
It's a fringe theory at best it's talking about Pre-Israelite Jerusalem.

Modern Scholarship states that the name of Abe's God Was El .. for some of the reasons given you .. but I have not given a comprehensive list.

You haven't given any reasons other than:

Everyone else was worshipping EL. ( But that ignores that Ail is not EL )
What else could it be since Exodus 6:3 says...
EL has epithets which don't actually match YHVH.

That's it.

I think you brought the encyclopedia britanica: This is what it says about EL. Right at the top.



Now, here's the entry which I think you tried to bring before. If you read carefully, I doubt you will, but if do, you'll see that this notion comes from the 4 source theory, which has now collapsed. And the encyclopedia simply needs to be updated.

Abraham - Genesis, Scholarship, Bible | Britannica

Abraham - Genesis, Scholarship, Bible: The saga of Abraham unfolds between two landmarks, the exodus from “Ur of the Chaldeans” (Ur Kasdim) of the family, or clan, of Terah and “the purchase of” (or “the burials in”) the cave of Machpelah. Tradition seems particularly firm on this point. The...

www.britannica.com

Your claim of 1 Verse .. is preposterous falsehood on steroid .. as have given many verses which support the Claim that ABe's God Was EL

No you haven't ZERO verses have been brought where Abe is epaking to God using the name EL. None, zero zip.

.. only one of which is his communion with the Canaaanite High Priest MelchiZedek.

No, he uses the name YHWH in that episode. He's actually correcting Malchi-tzedek. See which name is used first. The primary name, the most important name.

​

ויאמר אברם אל־מלך סדם הרמתי ידי אל־יהוה אל עליון קנה שמים וארץ׃​

​

And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lifted up my hand to יהוה, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth,​

this is coupled with Biblical History and Biblical Archaeology.

No it's not. Please please bring some biblical archeology of Abraham.

In a Canaanite cities - the Most High God of the Pantheon is EL -- In Phoenician cities -- the High God of the Pantheon is EL --

Soooooooo what?

and Abraham does not know any "Most High" named YHWH

Yes he does.

.. As we are told by YHWH.

That's not what the verse says.

So what was the Name of the Most High God Abraham

YHVH

and this Canaanite Priest King were worshiping.

Ail-Elyon

By what name did they know this God

They're two different people. Listen, maybe ths will help. I'm Jewish, but sometimes I'm around Christians. And if they will want to say grace, it's no problem. They say in Jesus' name we pray, I kind of ignore that part and think about God. My head is still bowed. I won't say Amen at the end. But, if they ask me, I'll say I was worhsipping the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

See how that works. 2 people in the same place at the same time can and DO have different god concepts.

.. and it matters not if you respond EL - CRonos- Ahura Mazda - or I Don't KNow ..

But I DO know because the name YHVH is in the verse in that story.

What we do know is that the name wasn't YHWH.

No..... that's based on a misunderstanding of Exodus 6:3.

So what was the name of this Most High God ..

Abe says the name is YHVH. Malchi-tzedek either doesn't know that name, has a different god, or used the wrong name unintentionally.

who are the other contenders you wish to put forth .. if you think Other than El ?

I don't need any contenders. YOU need a real reason to discredit the words on the page.

Crucified is your position ...

It's solid as a rock.

 

[dybmh]

@Sargonski ,

At this point, I'm repeating myself. It's time for you to bring some real evidence for this claim that Abe's god was EL.

have given many verses which support the Claim that ABe's God Was EL

I'm ignoring all other comments, and focusing only on this until you produce verses, plural.

And Psalms 82 doesn't matter. That's written by Asaph. You need something specifically from Abe supporting this claim.

 

[Sargonski]

Sure Abe says the name. Many times. You are simply using a poor translation of Exodus 6:3. The NIV does a good jib with it. The name was known. YHVH wasn't fully known.

​

You don't understand what was said to you --- gone complete deer in headlights.

YHWH says Abe never knew him or called him by name YHWH--->>> We are well aware the Bible is a walking contradiction to YHWH's claim .. claiming all over the place Abe speaking the name, and this was explained to you previously -- and why. This has ZERO to do with any translation issue so completely off the page...

Your "Fully Known" translation is laughable nonsense on Steroids. I noticed that when purusing verses and chuckled .. That is not what the text says .. Modern Scholarship is fully agreed on the fact that Abe did not know his God by the Name YHWH .. this not being the first place one or many modern Bibles will have clown car translations that are obviously intentional mistranslations .. unfortunate .. but true ..

but that is here nor there for the momente Do you Understand YHWH says Abe never knew him or called him by name YHWH- doesn't mean the Bible does not have ABE speaking the name YHWH ??

Reading comprehension 102 -- with the slightest pince of logic required .. hoping you will pass at least this test .. this continuous fail is becomming tedious.

YES/NO .. is all you have to respond.

 

[dybmh]

You don't understand what was said to you --- gone complete deer in headlights.

YHWH says Abe never knew him or called him by name YHWH--->>> We are well aware the Bible is a walking contradiction to YHWH's claim .. claiming all over the place Abe speaking the name, and this was explained to you previously -- and why. This has ZERO to do with any translation issue so completely off the page...

Your "Fully Known" translation is laughable nonsense on Steroids. I noticed that when purusing verses and chuckled .. That is not what the text says .. Modern Scholarship is fully agreed on the fact that Abe did not know his God by the Name YHWH .. this not being the first place one or many modern Bibles will have clown car translations that are obviously intentional mistranslations .. unfortunate .. but true ..

but that is here nor there for the momente Do you Understand YHWH says Abe never knew him or called him by name YHWH- doesn't mean the Bible does not have ABE speaking the name YHWH ??

Reading comprehension 102 -- with the slightest pince of logic required .. hoping you will pass at least this test .. this continuous fail is becomming tedious.

YES/NO .. is all you have to respond.

Ignored. All of this has been answered. YOU need to answer for your claim.

have given many verses which support the Claim that ABe's God Was EL

You have not given ANY verses that support the claim Abe's God was EL.

Please bring those verses. Psalms 82 doesn't count. That was Asaph. Gen 14 doesn't work because Abe uses the name YHWH.

 

[Sargonski]

@Sargonski ,

At this point, I'm repeating myself. It's time for you to bring some real evidence for this claim that Abe's god was EL.



I'm ignoring all other comments, and focusing only on this until you produce verses, plural.

And Psalms 82 doesn't matter. That's written by Asaph. You need something specifically from Abe supporting this claim.

Of course Psalm 82 Matters .. The Canaanite High God EL is Mentioned by Name .. some claiming El is actually the Speaking voice in some places of the verse.. but none disagree about what the Divine Council of EL refers to - the Canaanite "Most High"

Some Journal of Hebrew Scriptures Material for you friend

El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8​

El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8 | The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

jhsonline.org

Every Israelite and all the surrounding Nations knew about the Divine Council of EL --- That El is the Most High in the Heavenly Realm described in Psalm 89 -- as the link to Micheal Heiser points out .. these Sons of the Supreme one in attendance are not viewed by the Israelites as Humans .. and this is desperate and preposterous moronic nonsense in light of recent findings.

The Israelites believe El is the "Most High" in the heavens .. that the sons of God .. YHWH among them duking it out for the position of Most High on Earth. .. Psalm 82 tells the story of YHWH winning the battle .. defeating the other Gods.

So there is Two verses ..

Psalm 110 tells us how David is a Priest in the Order of MelChiZedek .. not the Order of Aaron .. maintaining the Priesthood of Zadok . Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. forming a bit of a Judicial Trinity within El's divine Council.

We find the Sons of God visiting the Most High in the heavens .. again .. these are not Humans .. Satan is among them -- a member of the Congregation of EL --- obviously not a Human.. Job 1

In Deut 32:8 -- we have El Elyon .. God Most High - divinding the nations among his Sons .. YHWH's portion Israel.. One of El's sons.

In Deut 32:43 again we have the Sons of God up in Heaven for a party .. Where is your translation of that Young Padawan .. See what you come up with .. another Chuckle we will have on your behalf.

 

[Sargonski]

That does not really answer my question..
What heresy? What don't I understand?

You are just rambling on about names of gods, and how many among the Israelites
were ignorant polytheists .. so what?

Look --- you are the one was in Stark Denial about El Being the High God. Bout Jesus being a Priest in the Order of MelchiZedek ..

Who is Your GOD ? --- and why is this question so difficult -- and how do you not understand that your answer - and/or lack therof is Heresy...

If you Answer YHWH = Heresy
If you answer "No Name ... No God" = Heresy .. lest you really want to hump the no name trope but I am not sensing that was your angle .. are you from the religion of the No -Name God ? Heresy

Now you understand ? and you been doing nothing but a rambling So what .. no need to throw your logs in my direction.

Now You See the Heresy ? so it be written So it shall be done .. remember what da Prophet told you Muhamu .. gone take you for nice ride .. on the train to Jah .. Rastafa .. dat who u wanna speak to -- I tell you true ...

 

[dybmh]

Of course Psalm 82 Matters .. The Canaanite High God EL is Mentioned by Name .. some claiming El is actually the Speaking voice in some places of the verse.. but none disagree about what the Divine Council of EL refers to - the Canaanite "Most High"

Some Journal of Hebrew Scriptures Material for you friend

El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8​

That's Asaph, it has nothing to do with Abe.

El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8 | The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

jhsonline.org

Every Israelite and all the surrounding Nations knew about the Divine Council of EL --- That El is the Most High in the Heavenly Realm described in Psalm 89 -- as the link to Micheal Heiser points out .. these Sons of the Supreme one in attendance are not viewed by the Israelites as Humans .. and this is desperate and preposterous moronic nonsense in light of recent findings.

The Israelites believe El is the "Most High" in the heavens .. that the sons of God .. YHWH among them duking it out for the position of Most High on Earth. .. Psalm 82 tells the story of YHWH winning the battle .. defeating the other Gods.

That has nothing to do with Abe.

So there is Two verses ..

Psalm 110 tells us how David is a Priest in the Order of MelChiZedek .. not the Order of Aaron .. maintaining the Priesthood of Zadok . Twin Gods of Justice and Righteousness .. forming a bit of a Judicial Trinity within El's divine Council.

You are aware of the first line of the Psalm right? But anyway, that also has nothing to do with Abe. Abe used the name YHWH when he met with Malchi-tzedek.

לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני שב לימיני עד־אשית איביך הדם לרגליך׃

A Psalm of David. Declare יהוה ...

So how is this relevant to EL? Are you just throwing spaghetti at the wall?

And it's not saying anything about David being in any priesthood.

We find the Sons of God visiting the Most High in the heavens .. again .. these are not Humans .. Satan is among them -- a member of the Congregation of EL --- obviously not a Human.. Job 1

Job has nothing to do with Abe. Remember you've been saying that the Hebrew bible is a compilation f different stories from different times. You need something from Abe's story, from Abe's time.

In Deut 32:8 -- we have El Elyon .. God Most High - divinding the nations among his Sons .. YHWH's portion Israel.. One of El's sons.

Nopey-nope. El-Elyon is not mentioned in Deut. 32. Check again. And still, this is not about Abe or Abe's beliefs.

In Deut 32:43 again we have the Sons of God up in Heaven for a party .. Where is your translation of that Young Padawan .. See what you come up with .. another Chuckle we will have on your behalf.

All of Israel are sons of God. God's first born actually. So, this is another nothing burger.

Where are the verses that have Abe speaking to EL? Where's the verses that support this claim? If there isn't anything in THAT story, at THAT time, then what in the world are you talking about?

 

[Sargonski]

That's Asaph, it has nothing to do with Abe.



That has nothing to do with Abe.



You are aware of the first line of the Psalm right? But anyway, that also has nothing to do with Abe. Abe used the name YHWH when he met with Malchi-tzedek.

לדוד מזמור נאם יהוה לאדני שב לימיני עד־אשית איביך הדם לרגליך׃

A Psalm of David. Declare יהוה ...

So how is this relevant to EL? Are you just throwing spaghetti at the wall?

And it's not saying anything about David being in any priesthood.



Job has nothing to do with Abe. Remember you've been saying that the Hebrew bible is a compilation f different stories from different times. You need something from Abe's story, from Abe's time.



Nopey-nope. El-Elyon is not mentioned in Deut. 32. Check again. And still, this is not about Abe or Abe's beliefs.



All of Israel are sons of God. God's first born actually. So, this is another nothing burger.

Where are the verses that have Abe speaking to EL? Where's the verses that support this claim? If there isn't anything in THAT story, at THAT time, then what in the world are you talking about?

What a circular circus wagon .. you keep crying "nothing to do with Abe" completely disavowed of any support or substantation for claim .. but also getting the question wrong .. as it is not Abe in particular .. but Abe's God. You are completely lost .. on a different page.

Job has much to do with Abe's God .. as does every other passage quoted you. and of course the Song of David is about him being a Priest in the Order of MelChiZedek .. same with Jesus .. Nobody debates this ... is not even controversial .. just wailing denial for the sake of denial .. triggered by SMCT.

Where is your translation of Deut 32:43 .. and what is this nonsense about The Most High not showing up in Deut 32 at all .. El Supreme shows up in Deut 32:8 ... some kind of Crackpot Translation you must have .. or perhaps just an inability to understand what you read..

Either way .. if you can't find the Most High in DEut 32 .. you have failed the task. this is supposed to be a learning experience . Where is your translation ... How will you know your God if you can not recognize him in Scripture ? 32:8 and how about that Divine Council in 32:43 ... need to pull an Indiana Jones to find that one aye mate ? How can you not see the Congregation of El .. and the divinities having one big Party in Heaven.

 

[Brian2]

No .. That's not how the logic works.. If the Name of the God being Worshiped is EL -- then it is not Yahweh .. Later on what we have (syncretism) is YHWH assuming the identity of YHWH.

If your claim is assumed to be true .. we create even more problems .. as then YHWH is the High God of the Canaanites - Phonecians - Assyrians - Babylonians .. a Trickster God - Pretending to be many different Gods having many different names.

Logic can work differently for different people depending on various things, such as assumptions.
If you start off with a presumption that says the science of the development of religion is true for all religions then you end up in a different place than if you just read the Bible and understand it for what it tells us about Yahweh.
A problem we have of course in this case is that El is both a name of the highest God of the Western Semites and also El is just a word that means "God". This no doubt has led to confusion.

Regardless .. this is simply not what the Israelites believed -- "That YHWH was all these other Gods" .. sorry Charlie .. the Israelites were raging Pagans who believed in the existence of many Gods .. and worshiped many different Gods .. which is Why YHWH is so pissed off at them all the time .. Jealous of these other Gods ..

I doubt that Abraham was a monotheist when Yahweh first spoke to him. Yahweh no doubt had revealed truths to all people and the various religions had corrupted that over time. Yahweh was doing something different with Abraham and his descendants. He chose Abraham and his descendants to be His special people to whom He would reveal it all and tell and convince them that He Yahweh was the one true God. It took time and there were many times of backsliding.

Sydyk is not Speculation for the name of a God --- The Priest Kings of the Day have the name of their God included in their name ... and a whole lot of people .. Samu-EL - Isra-EL, Ishma-EL, Dani-EL, .. Saul has a Son Meri-Baal.

Now the fact that you have one Priest King -- MelchiZedek -- is already a slam Dunk .. that we have Two (and probably were many more in the 500 years period) one 500 years later Adoni-Zedek "My Lord is Zedek" Tells us the Patron God of Jerusalem has been around a Long Long time -- is well known and highly respected .. Mt. Zion .. not only a respected religious Shrine .. but certainly also respected as a place of Justice, Truth, and Righteousness. .. and also .. the Name Salem - meaning Peace.

Wiki - Misor was the name of a deity appearing in a theogeny provided by Roman era Phoenician writer Philo of Byblos in an account preserved by Eusebius in Praeparatio Evangelica,[1] and attributed to the still earlier Sanchuniathon. He was one of two children of the deities Amunos and Magos. The other named was Sydyk. It is said that these two were the first to discover the use of salt. The names "Misor" and "Sydyk" mean "Straight" and "Just"[2] (or, in another translation, "Well-freed" and "Just"[3]).

Misor's son was named Taautus, and believed to be the inventor of the first written alphabet.[4]

I don't know anout Sydyk or how old this god is or where he came from but Melchizedek is priest of El Elyon.
Are you saying that God Most High is Zedek?
Misor - Wikipedia

Not only was Zedek the Patron God of Jerusalem under the Canaanites .. The High Priest Zadok - maintained the Prestly Tradition under David .. is then Put High Priest over all Israel .. and is the Priest who annoints Solomon.

Zadok was a Levite, a priest of Yahweh.

Then we have the fact that this Priestly Tradition was maintained .. and that David himself is a Priest of the Order of MelchiZedek ..

The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
2 The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
3 Your people shall be volunteers In the day of Your power; In the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, You have the dew of Your youth.
4 The Lord has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5 The Lord is at Your right hand;
He shall [a]execute kings in the day of His wrath.
6 He shall judge among the nations,

This is not the Aaronic Priestly Line --- not a Levite --- and nor is Zadok .. the lineage in Chronicles a well established later interpolation. How does the Canaanite High Priest under Adoni-Zedek manage to have "Levite" lineage ..

David was not a Levite but he and I suppose the other Judahide Kings in Jerusalem who are types of the Messiah, are called priests of the Most High God in the way of Melchizedek, who was both King and Priest, as the Messiah is.
Your wanting to make Zedek a god may or may not have any significance. El is certainly an important God but Zedek is hard to find and a bit iffy. If El was Zedek it should be more prominant than it is imo.
I do see significance in the meaning of Zedek and Melchizedek being priest of the Most High God.
So the Most High God is Righteousness if your meaning of the the name Melchizedek is true (which is might be) and later we see that Yahweh Our Righteousness is both the name of Jerusalem and the name of the Messiah (Jeremiah 23:6, 33:16)

Hebrews tells us that Jesus is also a Priest of the Order of MelchiZedek.. hence the Epiphets -- Prince of Peace .. Righteousness .. Justice and the Truth .. for Jesus is not only savior but also Judge... and his Power comes down from Heaven .. Heaven being "The Divine Council" .. or as known by the entire Middle east during time of the Patriarchs and Israelitese --- >>> .. the Council of EL .. You know .. the One mentioned in Psalm 82 .. and the setting for where the drama takes place.

A psalm of Asaph.​

82:1 God stands in[b] the assembly of El;[c] in the midst of the gods[d] he renders judgment.[e]

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

Psalm 82 - A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment. He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah) Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless. Vindicate the oppressed and suffering...

www.biblegateway.com

When it comes to there being a multiplicity of true gods, that is problematic when Yahweh says He is the only god.
Clearly to not cause contradiction, those gods in Psalm 82 are angels or human judges.
I see them as human judges as Jesus suggested they were.
Other religions might have had many gods meeting in council but in Israel, with only one God that is a problem.

 

[dybmh]

What a circular circus wagon .. you keep crying "nothing to do with Abe" completely disavowed of any support or substantation for claim .. but also getting the question wrong .. as it is not Abe in particular .. but Abe's God. You are completely lost .. on a different page.

No, it's not Abe's god. You said there were verses that supported this idea. But you haven't produced any. The best you can claim is about Asaph. But Asaph is not a prophet. So, you're jumping to conclusions about Abe based on what Asaph wrote.

Job has much to do with Abe's God .. as does every other passage quoted you.

No.... Abe repeatedly speaks about YHVH, and NEVER speaks about EL.

and of course the Song of David is about him being a Priest in the Order of MelChiZedek .. same with Jesus .. Nobody debates this ... is not even controversial .. just wailing denial for the sake of denial .. triggered by SMCT.

BUZZZZZZ. Another misquote. It doesn't say "In the Order of" ... it actually says "Al-Deevrati". Which is speech from the root DVR. This is a decree. An order, a verbal command. The word for Order, capital "O", like a division or group or priests would be a different word, something like מַחֲלְקוֹת.

So, if it were to say in the order of Malchi-Tzedek, it would be something like this:

נשבע יהוה ולא ינחם אתה־כהן לעולם על־דברתי במחלקות מלכי־צדק׃

And yes it IS controversial, the only reason you don't know it, is because... ummm you don't know a lot of stuff. Christians are desperate to make this about Jesus. So, you're going to find a lot of people writing with certainty about this psalm. The NT changes the meaning of the psalm. It's that simple.

You can read about it here:

Psalm 110 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

People who know the language, don't translate it that way.

​

4 The Lord swore and will not repent; you are a priest forever because of the speech of Malchizedek ( Judaica Press )​

​

4 The LORD has sworn and will not relent, “You are a priest forever, a rightful king by My decree." ( JPS )​

See, it's not a group, it's a command. And here's a dictionary entry:

Klein Dictionary, דבר ᴵ 1

דבר ᴵ to speak. — Qal - דָּבַר (used only in the act. part. דּוֹבֵר, ‘saying, speaking’, and in the pass. part. דָּבוּר, ‘said, spoken’). — Niph....

www.sefaria.org

Where is your translation of Deut 32:43 .. and what is this nonsense about The Most High not showing up in Deut 32 at all .. El Supreme shows up in Deut 32:8 ...

No.... the name EL-Supreme is not in there. But YHVH is in there many times.

some kind of Crackpot Translation you must have .. or perhaps just an inability to understand what you read..

No... don't be silly. I'm not using a translation. I'm looking for the name EL-ELYON and it's not there. And then I'm looking for YHVH and... wowsers, it's all over the place.

You're the one who cannot read Hebrew. So, YOU'RE the one who cannot understand what you're reading.

Let's see:

Verse 3:

כי שם יהוה אקרא הבו גדל לאלהינו׃​

​

Because I will proclaim the name יהוה; ascribe greatness to our God.​

Verse 6:

הליהוה תגמלו־זאת עם נבל ולא חכם הלוא־הוא אביך קנך הוא עשך ויכננך׃​

​

Do you thus requite יהוה, O foolish people and unwise? is not he your father who has bought you? has he not made you, and established you?​

Verse 9:

​

כי חלק יהוה עמו יעקב חבל נחלתו׃​

​

For יהוהs portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.​

Verse 12:

יהוה בדד ינחנו ואין עמו אל נכר׃​

So יהוה alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.​

Verse 19:

וירא יהוה וינאץ מכעס בניו ובנתיו׃​

And when יהוה saw it, he loathed them, because of the provocation of his sons, and of his daughters.​

Verse 27:

לולי כעס אויב אגור פן־ינכרו צרימו פן־יאמרו ידנו רמה ולא יהוה פעל כל־זאת׃​

​

Were it not that I feared the anger of the enemy, lest their adversaries should judge amiss, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and יהוה has not done all this.​

Verse 36:

כי־ידין יהוה עמו ועל־עבדיו יתנחם כי יראה כי־אזלת יד ואפס עצור ועזוב׃​

For יהוה shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he sees that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left.​

Either way .. if you can't find the Most High in DEut 32 .. you have failed the task. this is supposed to be a learning experience . Where is your translation ... How will you know your God if you can not recognize him in Scripture ? 32:8

Ohhhhhh. That' doesn't say EL-ELYON. It doesn't say EL at all. You see, you don't know the language. You see, in the Torah, elyon is not a name. The "most high" is YHVH. That's why YHVH is mentioned exclusively in this chapter. And EL is nowhere. And I've heard non-Hebrew readers make this claim before, so, I knew it was false. There is no EL-ELYON. And that's what you said. See below:

In Deut 32:8 -- we have El Elyon .. God Most High - divinding the nations among his Sons .. YHWH's portion Israel.. One of El's sons.

And yet again, lack of attention to detain, lack of precision. Assumptions. Not checking the text.

There is no El Elyon in Deuteronomy 32. I already told you, it only exists 5 times in the entire tanach. This is not one of them. It's easy to remember. 4 times in 14 ( That's Gen 14 ), And the last one is... drumroll.... a psalm of... guess who? Asaph. Psalm 78. So Asaph has a unique POV.

Look elyon is just a word:

​

Deut 26:19​

ולתתך עליון על כל־הגוים אשר עשה לתהלה ולשם ולתפארת ולהיתך עם־קדש ליהוה אלהיך כאשר דבר׃​

​

And to set you high above ( "עליון" elyon ) all nations which he has made, in praise, and in name, and in honor; and that you may be a holy people to the Lord your God, as he has spoken.​

​

Josh 16:5​

​

ויהי גבול בני־אפרים למשפחתם ויהי גבול נחלתם מזרחה עטרות אדר עד־בית חורן עליון׃​

​

And the border of the sons of Ephraim according to their families was thus; the border of their inheritance on the east side was Ataroth-Addar, to upper ( "עליון" elyon ) Beth-Horon;​

See, it's just a word. Just like all these other certain ideas you have. You just don't have the tools to error check them. Elyon is just a word. Without EL, it's not the name, of... um.... EL. And anyway, as I have shown you, i's Ail, not EL. Did you know that in Hebrew EL is a preposition? Yeah. Anytime some so-called scholar starts talking about EL, and conflating it with Ail... I know they're pretty much clueless.

and how about that Divine Council in 32:43

Verse 43:

​

הרנינו גוים עמו כי דם־עבדיו יקום ונקם ישיב לצריו וכפר אדמתו עמו׃​

​

Rejoice, O you nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will make expiation for the land of his people.​

Not sure what you're talking about here... did this come from a blog, or youtube?

Here it is from your preferred source... no council of EL anywhere.

... need to pull an Indiana Jones to find that one aye mate ? How can you not see the Congregation of El .. and the divinities having one big Party in Heaven.

Um, well because that's just 1 psalm, from Asaph, and Asaph is not a prophet.

So, You still have NO verses that support this idea that Abe worshipped EL. Where is all the evidence?

 

[Sargonski]

Logic can work differently for different people depending on various things, such as assumptions.
If you start off with a presumption that says the science of the development of religion is true for all religions then you end up in a different place than if you just read the Bible and understand it for what it tells us about Yahweh.
A problem we have of course in this case is that El is both a name of the highest God of the Western Semites and also El is just a word that means "God". This no doubt has led to confusion.




I doubt that Abraham was a monotheist when Yahweh first spoke to him. Yahweh no doubt had revealed truths to all people and the various religions had corrupted that over time. Yahweh was doing something different with Abraham and his descendants. He chose Abraham and his descendants to be His special people to whom He would reveal it all and tell and convince them that He Yahweh was the one true God. It took time and there were many times of backsliding.



I don't know anout Sydyk or how old this god is or where he came from but Melchizedek is priest of El Elyon.
Are you saying that God Most High is Zedek?
Misor - Wikipedia


Zadok was a Levite, a priest of Yahweh.



David was not a Levite but he and I suppose the other Judahide Kings in Jerusalem who are types of the Messiah, are called priests of the Most High God in the way of Melchizedek, who was both King and Priest, as the Messiah is.
Your wanting to make Zedek a god may or may not have any significance. El is certainly an important God but Zedek is hard to find and a bit iffy. If El was Zedek it should be more prominant than it is imo.
I do see significance in the meaning of Zedek and Melchizedek being priest of the Most High God.
So the Most High God is Righteousness if your meaning of the the name Melchizedek is true (which is might be) and later we see that Yahweh Our Righteousness is both the name of Jerusalem and the name of the Messiah (Jeremiah 23:6, 33:16)



When it comes to there being a multiplicity of true gods, that is problematic when Yahweh says He is the only god.
Clearly to not cause contradiction, those gods in Psalm 82 are angels or human judges.
I see them as human judges as Jesus suggested they were.
Other religions might have had many gods meeting in council but in Israel, with only one God that is a problem.

1) This has nothing to do with Science conflicting with Religion .. and everything to do with Biblical Scripture conflicting with and contradicting itself .. and NO - logic does not work differently for different people .. the Rules of Logic have not changed over the millennia.

What part of "Modern Scholarship states that EL was the God of the Patriarchs" - is falling on deaf ears .. this is no longer debated in Serious circles (such as the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures - El as the speaking voice in Psalm 82:6 - 8 El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8 | The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

There is no Confusion over over EL when used as a Personal Name .. such as in the Phrase Council of EL .. and when used as a Generic term for God in an epithet such as EL Elyon "God Most High" ... the Hebrew script sometimes designates when is Personal name or when singlular or Plural such as the case with "Elohim" - or the context of the sentence.

2) This has nothing to do with me wanting to make ZEDEK into anything. Priest Kings named themselves after the Patron God of the City - and Every city had a Patron God during the time of Abraham .. the Fact that 500 years later we have the name of the same God inroporated into the name of another Canaanite Priest King of the same city .. tells you that this was the name of a God. What part of this is not sinking in ? MelchiZedek - Adoni Zedek .. expecially when the meaning of the name is "MY Lord is Zedek"

What part of "MY Lord is Zedek" are you having trouble comprehending -- not ringing any bells.. What part is Sedek is a well established Phonecian diety .. did you miss ? .. what part of .. There is a Priestly Order named after MelchiZedek .. which carries down to David .. do you not get.

What God is this Priestly Order Worshiping through 500 years of Canaanite Occupation -- the King named Adoni-Zedek "My Lord is Zedek" - and the High Priests name is Zedek (Zadok) --

3) No one said Zedek was the "God Most High" .. being a Patron God of a City does not make that "God Most High" --- We know who "God Most High" is to the Canaanites .. Phoenicians - Midianites - Edomites - Ammonites - and variation of this same God among Assyrians - Babylonians - even the Hittites - Greeks ...

This has been the case for at least 1000 years by the time Abe leaves UR .. Everyone knows who "The Most High" God is Chief of the Divine Pantheon - "The Father" - Creator - God who lives in a tent on a Mountain - and so on.

What you believe .. or the beliefs of Jews in 400BC .. have ZERO brearing on what the people living in Abe's time believed .. and they all Believed in the Divine Pantheon .. no one singing Psalm 82 in a Temple of YHWH in 900 BC does not know what the Congregation of El is in the story or has trouble figuring out whether the Word EL is being Used as a proper name or General for the Term EL .. in fact the linguistic Use of EL for General word God may not have Developed yet.

What part of the Israelites were raging Pagans .. and Monotheism did not Exist ... everyone believed in the existence of many Gods .. is having trouble getting through ? What part of .. This includes YHWH --- is not sinking in ? "thou shall have no Gods Before me" "I am a jealous God" -- tells Israel to sacrifice to the Desert God Azazal .. Satan is a divinity .. as are the Angels for that matter .. Gods if they can make rain fall from the sky like Sataniel.. YHWH says "You are Gods - Sons of the Supreme one" .. to the Sons of God assembled in the Congregation of EL ..

Who is "The Supreme one" .. and if you wish to claim this is YHWH rather than EL -- you are then claiming that the Sons of God that YHWH is speaking to are the Sons of YHWH.

Tell me then .. Who is the "Supreme one in the Congregation of EL" .. to an Israelite singing this song in 900 BC??

Psalm 82
1 - YHWH stands in the Congregation of El in the midst of the Elohim he renders judgment.
6 - I say, ‘You are gods; all of you are sons of the supreme one.’

The supreme one is obviously referring to EL -- there is no person in 900 BC that woul dthink something else .. No one singing this song believed that the Sons of God were humans .. as that would mindless idiocy .. What Great deed would that be YHWH triumphing over humans .. who are not found in the Heavens .. where the Congregation of EL is located.

Here are the footnotes straight out of the Bible for Psalm 82:1

The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ʿdt ʾilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise

The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion.

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

Psalm 82 - A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment. He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah) Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless. Vindicate the oppressed and suffering...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[muhammad_isa]

Look --- you are the one was in Stark Denial about El Being the High God..

I am a monotheist .. the One God of Abraham has been known by many names.
..and people in the past referred to their polytheistic gods by many names too.

Bout Jesus being a Priest in the Order of MelchiZedek ..

Jesus was more than a priest..

Who is Your GOD ?

The One God of Abraham, who created the universe and all it contains.
He continues to maintain it until an appointed time.

If you Answer YHWH = Heresy

He is known by many as YHWH / Jehovah.

If you answer "No Name ... No God" = Heresy

How can a person describe God without a name?
The word God [capital G] is actually a name too.
He is also known as "the Most High".

 

[Sargonski]

No, it's not Abe's god. You said there were verses that supported this idea. But you haven't produced any. The best you can claim is about Asaph. But Asaph is not a prophet. So, you're jumping to conclusions about Abe based on what Asaph wrote

Ohhhhhh. That' doesn't say EL-ELYON. It doesn't say EL at all.

Verse 43:

​

הרנינו גוים עמו כי דם־עבדיו יקום ונקם ישיב לצריו וכפר אדמתו עמו׃​

​

Rejoice, O you nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will make expiation for the land of his people.​

Not sure what you're talking about here... did this come from a blog, or youtube?

Here it is from your preferred source... no council of EL anywhere.

View attachment 78339

So Excellent - you provided 2 Translations of Deut 32:43

"Rejoice, O you nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will make expiation for the land of his people"

The problem is . there is no mention of other divinities rejoicing with God .. the only people rejoicing here are the Nations of of the world with his People (presumably Israel).

What happened to the Other divinities - the Sons of God .. and the Angels ? Where did they Go !? Told you that some Indiana Jones would be required Friend.

The Translation I have been often using is from the Lenongrad Codex = "Masoretic Text" - put together 700-1000AD when translators could be burned at the stake for heresy .. no sign of any of Gods Divine Friends. The other Translation you posted (above) is also from the MT


Where did all of Gods friends go ?? Here is a much better translation than the MT hack Job above. One from an Older Bible ~200 BC ---

"O heavens, rejoice with Him - Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His people and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons, be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

I Bolded the parts removed or irrepairably Changed. Why did the text you are translating from remove all of Gods heavenly friends from the page ? Guess these translators in 1000 AD must have been really afraid of being Burned alive for Heresy .. so they engaged in a wee bit of "Pious Fraud" -- intentionally changing the text.

What is interesting about your translation is that even the MT keeps "Cleanse his Peoples Land" and the text means Cleanse - in the Biblical Sense .. aka "Ethnic Cleansing" - but even this is bastardized in modern Translations of the Bible such as the one you are using .. can't even get the MT right which is pathetic. "Atonement" is generally the term used in modern translations .. which is something completely different than Ethnic Cleansing.

 

[Brian2]

1) This has nothing to do with Science conflicting with Religion .. and everything to do with Biblical Scripture conflicting with and contradicting itself .. and NO - logic does not work differently for different people .. the Rules of Logic have not changed over the millennia.

Logic can end up in different places depending on your starting point and assumptions.

What part of "Modern Scholarship states that EL was the God of the Patriarchs" - is falling on deaf ears .. this is no longer debated in Serious circles (such as the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures - El as the speaking voice in Psalm 82:6 - 8 El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8 | The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

Who said there is no debate? There is more than one view, as the Bible Gateway link below tells us. Some see Ps 82 as about El the Canaanite god and others do not.
But it appears that El was the God that Abraham tithed to, yes. Then this God went on to say and show that He is the only true God and the other gods are nothing and He gave His name as Yahweh.
https://jhsonline.org/index.php/jhs/article/view/11282

There is no Confusion over over EL when used as a Personal Name .. such as in the Phrase Council of EL .. and when used as a Generic term for God in an epithet such as EL Elyon "God Most High" ... the Hebrew script sometimes designates when is Personal name or when singlular or Plural such as the case with "Elohim" - or the context of the sentence.

So El Elyon would be El the chief God of the pantheon.

2) This has nothing to do with me wanting to make ZEDEK into anything. Priest Kings named themselves after the Patron God of the City - and Every city had a Patron God during the time of Abraham .. the Fact that 500 years later we have the name of the same God inroporated into the name of another Canaanite Priest King of the same city .. tells you that this was the name of a God. What part of this is not sinking in ? MelchiZedek - Adoni Zedek .. expecially when the meaning of the name is "MY Lord is Zedek"

OK so you want Zedek to be nothing but the patron god of Jerusalem. It may or may not be true. But you actually want to make David into a priest of a God who is not Yahweh and Zadok it's priest also. But that is no more than modern scholarship BS in Israel where Yahweh has said that He s the only true God.

What part of "MY Lord is Zedek" are you having trouble comprehending -- not ringing any bells.. What part is Sedek is a well established Phonecian diety .. did you miss ? .. what part of .. There is a Priestly Order named after MelchiZedek .. which carries down to David .. do you not get.

The priestly order named after Melchizedek are Kings of Jerusalem and Priests of El Elyon.
So you want to make David into a priest of Zedek it seems,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, or iow you want to make Zedek into the god of David.
And if the Bible shows Zadok to be a Levite and Priest of Yahweh, it seems that you want to make him into a priest of Zedek also.
So you seem to be bringing conflict and contradiction into the Bible where none existed. You could fix it by making Zedek into Yahweh or by reading Melchizedek as "My God is righteous".
The thing is that some people want to read the Bible to eliminate contradictions and other people seem to want to make contradictions where it is not necessary.

3) No one said Zedek was the "God Most High" .. being a Patron God of a City does not make that "God Most High" --- We know who "God Most High" is to the Canaanites .. Phoenicians - Midianites - Edomites - Ammonites - and variation of this same God among Assyrians - Babylonians - even the Hittites - Greeks ...

This has been the case for at least 1000 years by the time Abe leaves UR .. Everyone knows who "The Most High" God is Chief of the Divine Pantheon - "The Father" - Creator - God who lives in a tent on a Mountain - and so on.

What you believe .. or the beliefs of Jews in 400BC .. have ZERO brearing on what the people living in Abe's time believed .. and they all Believed in the Divine Pantheon .. no one singing Psalm 82 in a Temple of YHWH in 900 BC does not know what the Congregation of El is in the story or has trouble figuring out whether the Word EL is being Used as a proper name or General for the Term EL .. in fact the linguistic Use of EL for General word God may not have Developed yet.

Since the word El was used to mean God before 900BC, the linguistic use of El for General word God had developed.
But I know, modern scholarship tells you that much of the Bible was written around the Exile and you believe that.
Presuming Ps 82 is about the Canaanite assembly of El, I would say, in the context of Yahweh being the only true God, that Yahweh is being sarcastic when He calls the human judges "gods" when in fact they may have felt that way and that they were immortal, but Yahweh reminds them that they are just humans who will die as humans, and that they should judge rightly because God (in this case Yahweh) owns the world and will be judging it and them.

What part of the Israelites were raging Pagans .. and Monotheism did not Exist ... everyone believed in the existence of many Gods .. is having trouble getting through ? What part of .. This includes YHWH --- is not sinking in ? "thou shall have no Gods Before me" "I am a jealous God" -- tells Israel to sacrifice to the Desert God Azazal .. Satan is a divinity .. as are the Angels for that matter .. Gods if they can make rain fall from the sky like Sataniel.. YHWH says "You are Gods - Sons of the Supreme one" .. to the Sons of God assembled in the Congregation of EL ..

Nobody tells Israel to sacrifice to any desert god Azazal.
What part of "I Yahweh am the only God" do you not understand?
What part of "the idols and gods of the nations are nothing" do you not understand?
What part of "stay away from those other gods that the nations have or you will be exiled" do you not understand?
Modern scholarship is great up to a point, and that point is where it starts saying that the Bible is wrong and that they are right.

 

[dybmh]

1) This has nothing to do with Science conflicting with Religion .. and everything to do with Biblical Scripture conflicting with and contradicting itself .. and NO - logic does not work differently for different people .. the Rules of Logic have not changed over the millennia.

You need to know the original language, which you don't.

What part of "Modern Scholarship states that EL was the God of the Patriarchs" - is falling on deaf ears

Since you haven't brought any modern scholarship to support this, it is proper to ignore the words of the ignorant.

.. this is no longer debated in Serious circles (such as the Journal of Hebrew Scriptures - El as the speaking voice in Psalm 82:6 - 8 El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6–8 | The Journal of Hebrew Scriptures

It is, you just ignore the debate. And this is Asaph, not Abe. I know I know, it's difficult for you to see the difference because the first letter is the same.

Maybe you should learn abotu Asaph if you want to speak intelligently. Do you know what Asaph means? That actually explains a lot.

There is no Confusion over over EL when used as a Personal Name .. such as in the Phrase Council of EL .. and when used as a Generic term for God in an epithet such as EL Elyon "God Most High" ... the Hebrew script sometimes designates when is Personal name or when singlular or Plural such as the case with "Elohim" - or the context of the sentence.

You are definitely confusing generic terms for personal names.

2) This has nothing to do with me wanting to make ZEDEK into anything. Priest Kings named themselves after the Patron God of the City - and Every city had a Patron God during the time of Abraham .. the Fact that 500 years later we have the name of the same God inroporated into the name of another Canaanite Priest King of the same city .. tells you that this was the name of a God. What part of this is not sinking in ? MelchiZedek - Adoni Zedek .. expecially when the meaning of the name is "MY Lord is Zedek"

You're simply not making a convincing argument. And you've made so many errors, there's no reason to believe you. There's no real connection between Adoni-Tzedek and Machi-Tzedek except their name. And like you said they're 500 years apart. The names of their cities are very very different. And the wiki-article YOU brought says this is fringey.

What part of "MY Lord is Zedek" are you having trouble comprehending -- not ringing any bells.. What part is Sedek is a well established Phonecian diety .. did you miss ? .. what part of .. There is a Priestly Order named after MelchiZedek .. which carries down to David .. do you not get.

There's a reason mainstream scholars aren't agreeing with you. It's because this assumption is extremely weak.

And it's not an "Order" that would be a different word in the original language. You'r relying to heavily and with absolute certainity to something coming from the Christian bible which is motivated to revise Jewish scripture to support its agenda.

What God is this Priestly Order Worshiping through 500 years of Canaanite Occupation -- the King named Adoni-Zedek "My Lord is Zedek" - and the High Priests name is Zedek (Zadok) --

Malchi-tzedek worshipped Ail-Elyon. If he worshipped Zedek, he the text would have said:

And Melchizedek king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of Ail-Elyon Zedek.​

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of Ail-Elyon Zedek, possessor of heaven and earthThe Righteous.​

See the difference?

3) No one said Zedek was the "God Most High" .. being a Patron God of a City does not make that "God Most High" --- We know who "God Most High" is to the Canaanites .. Phoenicians - Midianites - Edomites - Ammonites - and variation of this same God among Assyrians - Babylonians - even the Hittites - Greeks ...

But you have no evidence of anyone in the Tanach actually worshipping this god, who's name is derived by scholars to be Sydyk. Why aren't you being precise with the name of this god?

Oh... nevermind. I know why. *eye-rolls*

This has been the case for at least 1000 years by the time Abe leaves UR .. Everyone knows who "The Most High" God is Chief of the Divine Pantheon - "The Father" - Creator - God who lives in a tent on a Mountain - and so on.

Everyone knows you don't have the street-cred to claim anything anymore.

And YHWH is known as the God of my fathers. If you want to claim that Christians adopted and worship the canaanite EL, that's totally up to you.

And YHWH is everywhere, not living in a tent on a mountain. If you want to make this argument, you have to ignore every other story that has an individual human climbing a mountain in order to commune with a deity.

What you believe .. or the beliefs of Jews in 400BC .. have ZERO brearing on what the people living in Abe's time believed .. and they all Believed in the Divine Pantheon

Nope, that's one of your favorites "fallacy of generalization". Everyone. Hee. That's just silly to claim that everyone MUST have believed the same thing, and NO ONE could have an innovative idea.

.. no one singing Psalm 82 in a Temple of YHWH in 900 BC does not know what the Congregation of El is in the story or has trouble figuring out whether the Word EL is being Used as a proper name or General for the Term EL .. in fact the linguistic Use of EL for General word God may not have Developed yet.

Again, you're assuming a lot, and proving very little. As I mentioned previously in another thread, the same word for "congregation" means testimony with a tiny shift in the vowels.

So, nothing is certain in the way you are imagining it.

And the meaning of the Psalm IS debatable. It's actually really simple. It's a Psalm about people who were acting like gods.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23488222

Again, no paywall. Just click on the login button and choose login with Google.

Here, I actually found another place you can read it without logging in at all.

James M Trotter - Death of The Elohim in Psalm 82 | PDF

Scribd is the world's largest social reading and publishing site.

www.scribd.com

What part of the Israelites were raging Pagans

That has nothing to do with Abe. The common people did what they did. And the leaders made mistakes too.

.. and Monotheism did not Exist

Sure it did.

... everyone believed in the existence of many Gods .. is having trouble getting through ?

It's sunk in that your assumptions and generalizations have no credibility. Making a claim about literally everyone, is stupid.

What part of .. This includes YHWH --- is not sinking in ? "thou shall have no Gods Before me" "I am a jealous God" -- tells Israel to sacrifice to the Desert God Azazal .. Satan is a divinity .. as are the Angels for that matter .. Gods if they can make rain fall from the sky like Sataniel.. YHWH says "You are Gods - Sons of the Supreme one" .. to the Sons of God assembled in the Congregation of EL ..

The thing is, each of these can be addressed individually, but since you appear to need simple answers:

YHWH is the ONLY power, and all those other divine powers are, at best, angels who are completely subservient to YHWH. When YHWH was giving giving the commandments to the recently freed egyptian-slaves the language used was directed towards polytheists.

Who is "The Supreme one" .. and if you wish to claim this is YHWH rather than EL -- you are then claiming that the Sons of God that YHWH is speaking to are the Sons of YHWH.

Yeah, it's YHWH. And the term "sons of YHWH" is poetic not literal.

Tell me then .. Who is the "Supreme one in the Congregation of EL" .. to an Israelite singing this song in 900 BC??

It doesn't say supreme-one. And it doesn't say "EL" it says "Ail" which is a generic term in this case for "mighty".

So the Psalm reads:

​

A Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the [ones who consider themself] gods.​

You part in brackets comes from the context and meaning of the Psalm.

Psalm 82
1 - YHWH stands in the Congregation of El in the midst of the Elohim he renders judgment.
6 - I say, ‘You are gods; all of you are sons of the supreme one.’

Nope. That's not what it says. It doesn't say supreme one.

The supreme one is obviously referring to EL

No, it's not.

-- there is no person in 900 BC that woul dthink something else

Sure there would be.

.. No one singing this song believed that the Sons of God were humans ..

Hee.. of course they would Israel is God's first born.

as that would mindless idiocy ..

Well, no. Mindless idiocy is that you haven't turned around and reassessed every conclusion you have on these matters considering how many mistakes you've made.

Oliun....

The Leningrad Codex is a translation....

"The Source Bible"....

What Great deed would that be YHWH triumphing over humans .. who are not found in the Heavens .. where the Congregation of EL is located.

YHWH is everywhere, so, yeah, YHWH judges humans...

Here are the footnotes straight out of the Bible for Psalm 82:1

Straight out of A bible. What are the source for those comments?

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 82 - New English Translation

Psalm 82 - A psalm of Asaph. God stands in the assembly of El; in the midst of the gods he renders judgment. He says, “How long will you make unjust legal decisions and show favoritism to the wicked? (Selah) Defend the cause of the poor and the fatherless. Vindicate the oppressed and suffering...

www.biblegateway.com

Ummm, did you READ?

Did you apply any critical thinking to this? On what is this ASSUMPTION based?

This it the NET, the New English Translation. Those footnotes were written by Evangelicals who have a motive to protray the Jews in a negative light so that Jesus can show up and save us.

 

[dybmh]

So Excellent - you provided 2 Translations of Deut 32:43

"Rejoice, O you nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will make expiation for the land of his people"

The problem is . there is no mention of other divinities rejoicing with God .. the only people rejoicing here are the Nations of of the world with his People (presumably Israel).

What happened to the Other divinities - the Sons of God .. and the Angels ? Where did they Go !? Told you that some Indiana Jones would be required Friend.

The Translation I have been often using is from the Lenongrad Codex = "Masoretic Text" - put together 700-1000AD when translators could be burned at the stake for heresy .. no sign of any of Gods Divine Friends. The other Translation you posted (above) is also from the MT


Where did all of Gods friends go ?? Here is a much better translation than the MT hack Job above. One from an Older Bible ~200 BC ---

"O heavens, rejoice with Him - Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His people and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons, be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

I Bolded the parts removed or irrepairably Changed. Why did the text you are translating from remove all of Gods heavenly friends from the page ? Guess these translators in 1000 AD must have been really afraid of being Burned alive for Heresy .. so they engaged in a wee bit of "Pious Fraud" -- intentionally changing the text.

What is interesting about your translation is that even the MT keeps "Cleanse his Peoples Land" and the text means Cleanse - in the Biblical Sense .. aka "Ethnic Cleansing" - but even this is bastardized in modern Translations of the Bible such as the one you are using .. can't even get the MT right which is pathetic. "Atonement" is generally the term used in modern translations .. which is something completely different than Ethnic Cleansing.

wot?

It's going to take bit to unwind all of this.

You said:

and how about that Divine Council in 32:43

And now it looks like you've completely flip flopped and you're saying there isn't a divine council UNLESS you add words to the verse?

Oy. Let me see if I can figure this out what you're ven saying here. You sound like a raving lunatic.

So Excellent - you provided 2 Translations of Deut 32:43

"Rejoice, O you nations, with his people; for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will make expiation for the land of his people"

The problem is . there is no mention of other divinities rejoicing with God .. the only people rejoicing here are the Nations of of the world with his People (presumably Israel).

Why are there other divinities involved? Why even make that assumption?

I already quoted the verse:

Verse 12:

​

יהוה בדד ינחנו ואין עמו אל נכר׃​

​

So יהוה alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.​

ALONE.

What happened to the Other divinities - the Sons of God .. and the Angels ? Where did they Go !? Told you that some Indiana Jones would be required Friend.

Israel are the sons of God. The first born. Why would the angels be included here. There's no talk of angels. You're adding stuff, imagining stuff.

The Translation I have been often using is from the Lenongrad Codex = "Masoretic Text" -

Dude, the leningrad codex is NOT a translation. The MT is Hebrew only.

put together 700-1000AD when translators could be burned at the stake for heresy .. no sign of any of Gods Divine Friends. The other Translation you posted (above) is also from the MT

Yeah, it's from the Hebrew. And there's NO divine council anywhere in the verse.

Where did all of Gods friends go ??

YHWH is alone.

Here is a much better translation than the MT hack Job above. One from an Older Bible ~200 BC ---

"O heavens, rejoice with Him - Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His people and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons, be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

Where does this come from?

I Bolded the parts removed or irrepairably Changed.

What's the evidence of the removal? How do you know any of this is *actually* true.

Again, if we're adding words then I can add words too. Then everything you're saying can be easily refuted by adding the words I need to the verses.

Why did the text you are translating from remove all of Gods heavenly friends from the page ?

Probably because they didn't exist to begin with.

Why did you add God's friends who weren't there? Why did you claim the verse has a divine council, when it doesn't?

Guess these translators in 1000 AD must have been really afraid of being Burned alive for Heresy .. so they engaged in a wee bit of "Pious Fraud" -- intentionally changing the text.

No, they probably did a word for word translation without adding or removing anything. Since you NEED to add words, that makes the argument W-E-A-K.

What is interesting about your translation is that even the MT keeps "Cleanse his Peoples Land" and the text means Cleanse - in the Biblical Sense .. aka "Ethnic Cleansing" - but even this is bastardized in modern Translations of the Bible such as the one you are using .. can't even get the MT right which is pathetic. "Atonement" is generally the term used in modern translations .. which is something completely different than Ethnic Cleansing.

Well, I really don't care about your opinion. I'm going to see if I can find where this weird translation you've chosen which adds words is actually coming from.

 

[Sargonski]

I am a monotheist .. the One God of Abraham has been known by many names.
..and people in the past referred to their polytheistic gods by many names too.


Jesus was more than a priest..


The One God of Abraham, who created the universe and all it contains.
He continues to maintain it until an appointed time.


He is known by many as YHWH / Jehovah.


How can a person describe God without a name?
The word God [capital G] is actually a name too.
He is also known as "the Most High".

What is this made up falsehood Muhamu .. What are these many names by which Abraham knew his God ? "GOD" is not a name .. God Most High is not a name, it is an epithet.

Who is known by many as YHWH at the time of Abraham .. This is utter made up nonsense Friend but regardless, Abraham did not know his God as YHWH .. so what is the name of your God this "One God of Abraham"

 

[dybmh]

Where did all of Gods friends go ?? Here is a much better translation than the MT hack Job above. One from an Older Bible ~200 BC ---

OK, you're using the LXX. But you can't blame the MT, because the DSS is missing those lines too. And the DSS is a contemporary of the LXX also around 200BCE-ish.

So, there's 2 votes for the lack of those phrases, and 1 vote for the inclusion of the those phrases.

"O heavens, rejoice with Him - Bow to Him, all sons of the divine

Sure, All beings are children of God. Israel is the first born.

O nations, rejoice with His people and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.

Great, nations, Israel, and angels are all strengthened in God.

For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons, be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes

OK... still no divine council.

And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

Well..... not really. Cleanse? That's a different word.

I Bolded the parts removed or irrepairably Changed. Why did the text you are translating from remove all of Gods heavenly friends from the page ?

Well, since those words don't exist in the DSS then, it could be they were added. or removed. Either way... no divine council. Just angels.

Guess these translators in 1000 AD must have been really afraid of being Burned alive for Heresy .. so they engaged in a wee bit of "Pious Fraud" -- intentionally changing the text.

Nah. If it happened, it happened loooooooong before that.

What is interesting about your translation is that even the MT keeps "Cleanse his Peoples Land" and the text means Cleanse - in the Biblical Sense .

No it doesn't. The MT is not a translation. You can't seem to get this correct. The MT is Hebrew only. The word used there is כפר. Which does mean atonement which is technically covering, not cleaning. Cleanse as you are meaning, would be more like טחר, in leviticus.

The LXX does use a word for cleasing or purifying "καθαρίζω", but this does not match the Hebrew. And when comparing other verses that *actually* speak about atonement, Exodus 29:33, there is a different word used in the LXX, "ἐξιλασμόν".

So:

Atonement in Exodus 29:33 = כפר in Hebrew and ἐξιλασμόν in Greek.
Atonement in Deuteronomy 32:43 = כפר in Hebrew and καθαρίζω in Greek.

he conclusion from this, and other examples when comparing the LXX to the MT, the LXX is a translation that makes choices in how it translates. In this case, it's making the verse more extreme.

. aka "Ethnic Cleansing" - but even this is bastardized in modern Translations of the Bible such as the one you are using .. can't even get the MT right which is pathetic. "Atonement" is generally the term used in modern translations .. which is something completely different than Ethnic Cleansing.

There's not difference between expiation and atonement. The word in the MT is כפר not טחר, so it's translated properly in the version I brought. It's just different than the LXX. But there is no real reason to choose the LXX over the MT because the DSS agrees with the MT.

That shows the Masoretes did not change the verse.

 

[dybmh]

What is this made up falsehood Muhamu ..

No, he's 100% right.

What are these many names by which Abraham knew his God ?

He only used 1 name.

"GOD" is not a name ..

True.

God Most High is not a name, it is an epithet.

Great! So that solves the entire Abe's god was named EL. EL is not a name it's an epithet.

Debate's over!

Who is known by many as YHWH at the time of Abraham .. This is utter made up nonsense Friend but regardless,

No, it's actually reading the text and not adding things.

Abraham did not know his God as YHWH ..

Sure he did.

so what is the name of your God this "One God of Abraham"

That's not a bad title.

Although officially:

Thus shall you say to the people of Israel, יהוה, God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you; this is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.​