Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?

[dybmh]

Negotiate.

Repeating the same actions over and over expecting a different result? That's insane. And dangerous. We do not have the luxury of playing games anymore.

 

[George-ananda]

I think the OP question should become:

'Why aren't the Palestinian people trying to overthrow Hamas?".

 

[Димитар]

And we Jews have repeatedly offered peace, offered the Palestinians a state, offered to cooperate, to be neighbors, all of it has been declined with violence and extreme malice.

Enough is enough. Oct. 7th was the last straw.

We will see the after.

Israel had many possibilities on how to engage in this conflict.At least an ally on the ground would have been better.That is what i think would have changed the whole picture of this war.

What i see now is the annihilation of Gaza.
Too many children , too many even if we consider that half of the numbers are fabricated.

Israel demonstrated power , but did not demonstrate greatness.How will Israel confrort the hate when the after comes?
Future generation have to live , right?

 

[Koldo]

1) Changing the subject concedes the point. The structural damage, elimination of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals is a direct consequence of the actions of the enemies of Israel. Israel is doing the right thing, necessarily, rendering the threat inert regardless of its locale.

I have not change the subject. Are you okay?
You've said that Israel can't stop the attacks without encouraging more attacks on itself. I then pointed out the obvious... that killing palestinian civilians fuels terrorist groups, which will then lead to more attacks on Israel.
Pretending I have changed the subject concedes the point.

2) The causalities are being tallied by Hamas. Statistical analysis shows that the data has been manipulated intentionally.

Even if they are incorrect, there is no way to deny the massacre.

Alright Commander, what's your plan? You think you can do better; let's hear it. Be specific.

Close the border, increase surveillance and improve the physical barriers.

 

[Koldo]

Repeating the same actions over and over expecting a different result? That's insane. And dangerous. We do not have the luxury of playing games anymore.

And killing thousands and thousands of civilians is a better alternative?

 

[dybmh]

What i see....

What you're seeing, based on what you've written, is grossly incomplete and curated to produce an intentionally flawed conclusion. It's called "DIP". Deceptive Imagery Persuasion. The Russians have been doing it for quite some time. The Gaza "correspondents" can't be trusted either. At best they're suffering from extreme trauma from living in a warzone where every shot ringing out in the distance is exaggerated into bullets targeting everything that moves including themselves.

I was listening to left wing radio, because, believe it or not I'm a hard core progressive, and the individual reporting from Gaza sounded to like someone who is either in shock, or an absolute liar. What they were reporting was impossible to believe if one gets beyond the knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Димитар]

What you're seeing, based on what you've written, is grossly incomplete and curated to produce an intentionally flawed conclusion. It's called "DIP". Deceptive Imagery Persuasion. The Russians have been doing it for quite some time. The Gaza "correspondents" can't be trusted either. At best they're suffering from extreme trauma from living in a warzone where every shot ringing out in the distance is exaggerated into bullets targeting everything that moves including themselves.

The war will end , we will see how many were killed.

I was listening to left wing radio, because, believe it or not I'm a hard core progressive, and the individual reporting from Gaza sounded to like someone who is either in shock, or an absolute liar. What they were reporting was impossible to believe if one gets beyond the knee-jerk reaction.

To hear about war and expirience war is not the same.

I see what Hamas is doing as i see what Israel is doing.Hamas should be broken , on that we can certainly agree.I see the shield tactic by Hamas.If Israel forced evacuation of Gaza and builded camps , this could've ended differently.
But Israel chose to work alone.
It seems that you do not understand what is the critic here.

 

[dybmh]

The war will end , we will see how many were killed.

The body count is irrelevant.

i see what Israel is doing

Doubt it

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And we Jews have repeatedly offered peace, offered the Palestinians a state, offered to cooperate, to be neighbors, all of it has been declined with violence and extreme malice.

Enough is enough. Oct. 7th was the last straw.

Are you an Israeli? Because Israel does not represent all Jews and it's dangerous rhetoric to present it that way. Not all Israeli citizens are Jewish, either. Not all Jews are Zionist and not all Zionists are Jews. So saying "we Jews" is incorrect.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The body count is irrelevant.

How shameful. You're destroying your reputation with each post. See if anyone respects you when it's all said and done. I used to think you were a nice person.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes , they need to answer in every possible way.The state , not the whole nation.

That seems a weird caveat. Nobody is arguing the whole country is responsible. Of course it's the state.

And what way do they need to answer for it? Do you agree they need to stop committing war crimes?

And plus , After this is over , they should rebuilt Gaza with their own money.

I agree they should do everything they can, but to suggest they rebuild it entirely seems to be putting an unfair burden on the citizens of Israel who played no part in the decision to level it. This also seems kind of vague. Are they just going to rebuild the city, or grant the city sovereignty?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I mean i don't know a person personally who agrees with the war crimes of Israel.

Personally, perhaps. But there are plenty of people on this forum, as you can see, who seem to want to deny - or, at least, justify and downplay - Israel's war crimes.

But it seems that i am among people who think that is relevant however and still a matter of discussion.

Perhaps I am being unfair. It's a worthwhile consideration when looking at a long-term solution, but it's relevance slips away when discussing the more pressing issue of tens of thousands of civilians dying.

Nono , i am adressing what is lately the hype over this conflict.The finger on Israel alone.

But the finger is on Israel currently because Israel are the ones currently engaging in war crimes and killing a much larger number of civilians. It seems a little suspect to ignore that, is all.

Nono , your questions were answered.
You said 'distract' so does that mean what Hamas is doing on a larger scale is irrelevant , right?

Not necessarily to the entire conflict, but it is irrelevant to the question of Israeli war crimes and whether or not they should be engaging in them. I have encountered many posters on this forum who, when Israel's war crimes are mentioned, will start waxing political about the threat of Islam, and how antisemitic Muslims are, and how terrible of a threat Iran is, as if any of these things in any way justify war crimes. It comes off as an attempt to dehumanise Muslims and thus make crimes against them more acceptable.

I am ok with your view since both should carry the blame.
Israel should answer also for the crimes against humanity.As long as the state will answer , and not the whole nation.

Unfortunately, it's hard to affect one without the buck being passed to the other.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

1) Changing the subject concedes the point. The structural damage, elimination of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals is a direct consequence of the actions of the enemies of Israel. Israel is doing the right thing, necessarily, rendering the threat inert regardless of its locale.

Translation: Israel's actions can be blamed on other groups, so it doesn't matter how many war crimes they commit or how many civilians are being killed. Israel can bomb whoever and whatever it wants, and it's all Hamas' fault.

2) The causalities are being tallied by Hamas. Statistical analysis shows that the data has been manipulated intentionally.

I would absolutely LOVE to see evidence for this claim, especially considering the Gaza Health Ministries counts for similar things in the past have always matched independent figures (often including Israel's), and the fact that the body count at this point in such a conflict is very commonly an UNDER-ESTIMATION.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Repeating the same actions over and over expecting a different result? That's insane. And dangerous. We do not have the luxury of playing games anymore.

Hamas probably think very similarly to you.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The body count is irrelevant.

Ladies and gentlemen, the mask has fallen.

 

[Димитар]

And what way do they need to answer for it? Do you agree they need to stop committing war crimes?

Yes, ofc.

I agree they should do everything they can, but to suggest they rebuild it entirely seems to be putting an unfair burden on the citizens of Israel who played no part in the decision to level it. This also seems kind of vague. Are they just going to rebuild the city, or grant the city sovereignty?

Who should rebuilt Gaza then?
They destroyed it , they should rebuilt it.
Citizens don't need to pay a thing , they have money all around the world.

That's a political issue, i don't know what will Israel do regarding sovereignity..

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, ofc.

Thank you for the clarification, and I retract any previous insinuations that were not reflective of your position.

Who should rebuilt Gaza then?

It may have to be an international effort. Certainly America provided a significant number of bombs.

They destroyed it , they should rebuilt it.
Citizens don't need to pay a thing , they have money all around the world.

I fear they might pass that particular buck to their citizenry, unfortunately.

That's a political issue, i don't know what will Israel do regarding sovereignity..

Fair enough.

 

[Димитар]

Personally, perhaps. But there are plenty of people on this forum, as you can see, who seem to want to deny - or, at least, justify and downplay - Israel's war crimes.

Yes , but they are not wrong about Hamas.
I have experience with political analysis in Middle East , Hamas is way worse then a regular sect.

Perhaps I am being unfair. It's a worthwhile consideration when looking at a long-term solution, but it's relevance slips away when discussing the more pressing issue of tens of thousands of civilians dying.

Yes , the problem is the dying...

But the finger is on Israel currently because Israel are the ones currently engaging in war crimes and killing a much larger number of civilians. It seems a little suspect to ignore that, is all.

I don't deny that.
I have seen every Hamas move from the begining of this war , they putted Israel on this track with so much violence.They made the people of Gaza to be shields.
That's a tactical move.
Israel doesn't care about that , they just hunt as Hamas wanted Israel to do.
They were ready to die from the begining.

Not necessarily to the entire conflict, but it is irrelevant to the question of Israeli war crimes and whether or not they should be engaging in them. I have encountered many posters on this forum who, when Israel's war crimes are mentioned, will start waxing political about the threat of Islam, and how antisemitic Muslims are, and how terrible of a threat Iran is, as if any of these things in any way justify war crimes.

Threat of this agressive Islamic sects..
I never referenced Islam,i have myself many Muslim friends.
The Quran is a very dangerous Book , if taken literally.

It comes off as an attempt to dehumanise Muslims and thus make crimes against them more acceptable.

Who cares if they see themselfs as these sects.
We don't want that in our countries.
We don't want Sharia law , end of story.

Unfortunately, it's hard to affect one without the buck being passed to the other.

Unfortunately..

 

[Димитар]

Thank you for the clarification, and I retract any previous insinuations that were not reflective of your position.

It's all good , but i stay the same regarding Hamas.

It may have to be an international effort. Certainly America provided a significant number of bombs.

Don't agree.
Israel is the executor.
If you see the whole picture , then we should all build it...

I fear they might pass that particular buck to their citizenry, unfortunately.

The Jews keep the money in the Jewish community... They have money on a larger scale and more then anyone.. Trust me

 

[dybmh]

I have not change the subject

The subject was structural damage. Then you shifted to body count.

killing palestinian civilians fuels terrorist groups, which will then lead to more attacks on Israel.

See? The topic was the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals. The subject is not the killing of civilians. Changing the subject to the killing of civilians concedes the point: the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals is neccessary, because otherwise the attackers get a free-pass as long as they have homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals as a safe harbor.

Pretending I have changed the subject concedes the point.

No, I'm simply staying on topic. You're getting ahead of yourself. At risk of minimizing the pooint you're trying to make, the "PR problem" of killing civilians creates enemies, and fuels hatred, yes, but that is ancillary to the search rescue and recovery of the hostages, and demilitarizing Gaza. Changing hearts and minds is one of the last steps in the process. You're making it the first. That's a mistake for various reasons. Primary among them is this: the enemies of Israel have been taught for over a thousand years they have nothing to lose. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain from killing Jews. They're desperate. And they're also taught never compromise, martyr yourself instead. You do not know what we're up against, sir. You simply don't know.

Even if they are incorrect, there is no way to deny the massacre.

Listen to yourself? You dont care if the information you''re recieving is incorrect. You will use thhe incorrect information and judge according to it regardless. You don't know what's going on, but it MUST be a massacre. You don't know, but you judge anyway. That's bad policy. You want "it" to stop, but you don't know what "it" is.

The simple truth is, you don't know how many innocents have been killed, and you don't know the circumstances which lead to their death. True? Do you know what happened? Details, man. Details.... Making an accurate eval requires: who, what, when/where, how, and why. You don't have any of that do you?

But you have a word: massacre. I have a word, too: ignorant. Here's another one: foolish. Here's another word: immature.

Close the border, increase surveillance and improve the physical barriers.

Commander, have you been living under a rock? Do you have any idea what's involved in securing high value assets? Do you know what you're talking about? At all?

When was the last time you were at an airport? I don't know how they do it in Brazil, but I certainly know how we do it in the U.S. There are zones, layers, plural, of protection wrapping in concentric circles around the high value assets: the plane, the pilots, the crew and the passengers. The first visible zone, if you're paying attention and know what to look for, extends approx. 1 mile beyond the airport. 1 mile. 1 mile before crossing the "border" into the airport each and every individual approaching the airport is passing through a security corridor. But you have no idea, for good reason.

Not only that. There are no perfect physical barriers. Every wall has its weakness. All it takes is time, motivation, and effort. Trust me, I know. That's why here in the U.S. dev-gru and others are continuously pen-testing. And we never share our standards and practices. Loose lips sink ships. Security from obscurity and consealment. Always. You and yours have no idea what's involved in protecting human life from those who are committed, religiously, to ending it. Because, the more we reveal of our standards and practices, the easier it is to defeat them. Yes, that means, ignorant fools will armchair quarterback and criticise. Guess what? We don't care. We know so much more about what's actually going on, and what's required to establish peace and security. And. We will do them regardless of your opinions. I asked for specifics, you brought a farse.

And killing thousands and thousands of civilians is a better alternative?

You don't know how many civilians have been killed, sir. And the ones that have been killed... you don't know why. Because of that, your opinions have very little impact on me. You are conversing with a seasoned professional. There are plenty of others who will engage in shallow speculative criticism. I am not one of them. If you would like to have a conversation with me, you'll need to step it up, sir.

You care? Great. You're smart? Awesome! Listen, learn, take notes if you need to. But as it stands now, I see no reason to continue this discussion. Come back when you're more educated on the conflict and the principles of war and security.

Have a pleasant rest of your day