Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?

[dybmh]

So saying "we Jews" is incorrect.

Frank, we Jews offered peace, cooperation, and a shared existence ("statehood") to the palenstians before the modern State of Israel existed. And. We have been offering it repeatedly and often for the past 70 years.

I used to think you were a nice person.

I am a nice person. But, we are at war. Nice is not an option. It would be "nice" if the Palenstians in postions of power would stick to their agreements. Stop sending rockets, stop sending murderers, kidnappers, rapists, etc... into israel per their agreement. Oslo II was a huge opportunity for them. They flushed that opportunity right down the toilet. They were getting their state. They prefer to raise an army and take it all, by force. Fine. They can have their war and lose, again.

 

[dybmh]

Ladies and gentlemen, the mask has fallen.

What are you talking about? In each and every military conflict the victor always kills many-many more than their opponent. Body count is always irrelevant. Wake up. This is not news. Maybe it is to you, but your ignorance is not my problem.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What are you talking about? In each and every military conflict the victor always kills many-many more than their opponent. Body count is always irrelevant. Wake up. This is not news.

Good way to spin the idea that people being killed is irrelevant.

Too late, though.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I am a nice person. But, we are at war. Nice is not an option. It would be "nice" if the Palenstians in postions of power would stick to their agreements. Stop sending rockets, stop sending murderers, kidnappers, rapists, etc... into israel per their agreement. Oslo II was a huge opportunity for them. They flushed that opportunity right down the toilet. They were getting their state. They prefer to raise an army and take it all, by force. Fine. They can have their war and lose, again.

Another translation: The innocent civilians of Palestine deserve to have war crimes inflicted on them, because their previous leadership didn't accept a certain offer of sovereignty for various reasons, and because the terrorist group (that Israel propped up) which is the only power in the region turns out to be very interested in doing terrorism.

Does it feel good to actively blame people for the war crimes being inflicted on them? I'm asking, because I can only assume that's the reason you're doing so, because I cannot fathom anyone with any moral or political principles of any kind stating this kind of rhetoric.

 

[Dimi95]

What are you talking about? In each and every military conflict the victor always kills many-many more than their opponent. Body count is always irrelevant. Wake up. This is not news.

So Israel is in conflict with Gaza , not with Hamas , is that what you are saying?
Because Benjamin Netanyahu declared war on Hamas 7 October 2023.
You are indericetly saying every person in Gaza is part of the conflict as you said also 'oponent'.Are they the oponent of Israel?

 

[dybmh]

So Israel is in conflict with Gaza , not with Hamas , is that what you are saying?

no

 

[dybmh]

Another translation: The innocent civilians of Palestine deserve to have war crimes inflicted on them

no

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Frank, we Jews offered peace, cooperation, and a shared existence ("statehood") to the palenstians before the modern State of Israel existed. And. We have been offering it repeatedly and often for the past 70 years.

Firstly, no. It was not "we the Jews" for multiple reasons. For starters, you offered nothing. I doubt you were there.

For seconds, the actions of groups made of Jews are not necessarily representative of Jews broadly. There have always been Jews who were opposed to the displacement of the Palestinian people.

Third, it wasn't "the Jews" to offer. The land should have belonged to the Palestinians (including Jews) who had lived there for generations. It was taken from them by a British mandate and carved up without the people's permission and consent.

Fourth, if the land was truly being offered openly and freely, then why the constant and repeated illegal annexation of Palestinian territory? Why has Israel shown continuous growth over the past 70 years? If the government of Israel truly were invested in giving land and sovereignty to Palestine, you'd think the first thing they'd stop doing is constantly pushing back the border of what Palestine was.

 

[dybmh]

Good way to spin the idea that people being killed is irrelevant.

no

1 innocent life lost is a tragedy. 1. That's all it takes. The point, which you are missing, is that if the job is not finished, each and every innocent life which is lost, on both sides, is in vain. That is not OK.

 

[dybmh]

Firstly, no. It was not "we the Jews" for multiple reasons

Indeed it was.

 

[dybmh]

Third, it wasn't "the Jews" to offer.

The Palestinians sold their land. They're still selling their land. Haven't we discussed this before? You don't remember?

 

[Dimi95]

no

1 innocent life lost is a tragedy. 1. That's all it takes. The point, which you are missing, is that if the job is not finished, each and every innocent life which is lost, on both sides, is in vain. That is not OK.

Ok , but Israel chose the fastest way to approach this war.There is always alternative.There are military possibilities that include operations with allies.
You miss maybe that power does not mean greatness.
Israel had the oppurtunity to make things differently, i can't understand why is that hard to accept.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

no

Then stop making excuses for them. War isn't the issue we're taking up, here. It's war crimes.

Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Attacks on schools during the Israeli invasion of Gaza - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Attacks on health facilities during the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2023 Israeli airstrikes on municipal services in the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Tel al-Sultan attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gaza Strip mass graves - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Destruction of cultural heritage during the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israeli razing of cemeteries and necroviolence against Palestinians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip (2023–present) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gaza humanitarian crisis (2023–present) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Structural abuse - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gaza Strip famine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Killing of health workers in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Killing of journalists in the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gaza Strip evacuations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Israeli incursions in the West Bank during the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Killing of Alon Shamriz, Yotam Haim, and Samer Talalka - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Human shields in the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sexual and gender-based violence against Palestinians during the Israel–Hamas war - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Allegations of genocide in the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Please explain to me why these things are all necessary actions of war, or why we should blame Hamas for them.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

The Palestinians sold their land. They're still selling their land. Haven't we discussed this before? You don't remember?

Yes, and I revealed that what you said wasn't true. Jewish settlers owned land that totalled less than 7% of the overall land of Mandatory Palestine. It is false to suggest that Palestinians sold all of Palestine to Jewish settlers.

On 1 April 1945, the British administration's statistics showed that Jewish buyers had legal ownership over approximately 5.67% of the Mandate's total land area, while state-owned domain was 46%.[5][6][7] By the end of 1947, Jewish ownership had increased to 6.6%.[8] This cycle of land acquisition ultimately ended when the Israeli Declaration of Independence yielded the founding of the Jewish state on 14 May 1948.
SOURCE: Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia

 

[ImmortalFlame]

no

1 innocent life lost is a tragedy. 1. That's all it takes. The point, which you are missing, is that if the job is not finished, each and every innocent life which is lost, on both sides, is in vain. That is not OK.

Do you or do you not understand the difference between lives lost due to collateral damage in a legitimate act of war and lives lost due to the carrying out of deliberate war crimes?

Yes or no?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Indeed it was.

No. You weren't there, and the Jews that made the purchase were not representative of all Jews, as I went on to explain. Do not ever take my arguments out of context again.

 

[metis]

To justify the ongoing massacre? Nope.

And who started it, and who now is turning down a U.S. cease-fire proposal that Israel has accepted?

 

[Koldo]

The subject was structural damage. Then you shifted to body count.



See? The topic was the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals. The subject is not the killing of civilians. Changing the subject to the killing of civilians concedes the point: the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals is neccessary, because otherwise the attackers get a free-pass as long as they have homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals as a safe harbor.

The subject was whether Israel could stop destroying Gaza. It is you who introduced the killing of civilians in our conversation:

"Hamas has promised to repeat the OCt 7th attack.

What you're proposing is a free-pass for palestinians to continue to send their rockets, their kidnappers, their murders, and their rapists into israel as long as they have a school, or a mosque, or a hospital to hide in."

No, I'm simply staying on topic. You're getting ahead of yourself. At risk of minimizing the pooint you're trying to make, the "PR problem" of killing civilians creates enemies, and fuels hatred, yes, but that is ancillary to the search rescue and recovery of the hostages, and demilitarizing Gaza. Changing hearts and minds is one of the last steps in the process. You're making it the first. That's a mistake for various reasons. Primary among them is this: the enemies of Israel have been taught for over a thousand years they have nothing to lose. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain from killing Jews. They're desperate. And they're also taught never compromise, martyr yourself instead. You do not know what we're up against, sir. You simply don't know.

It doesn't take a militarized Gaza to perform a terrorist attack that can kill a thousand people. That is a lesson the entire world learned after September 11.

Also, militarily speaking Gaza has always been weak compared to Israel. That has never been THE issue.

Listen to yourself? You dont care if the information you''re recieving is incorrect. You will use thhe incorrect information and judge according to it regardless. You don't know what's going on, but it MUST be a massacre. You don't know, but you judge anyway. That's bad policy. You want "it" to stop, but you don't know what "it" is.

The simple truth is, you don't know how many innocents have been killed, and you don't know the circumstances which lead to their death. True? Do you know what happened? Details, man. Details.... Making an accurate eval requires: who, what, when/where, how, and why. You don't have any of that do you?

But you have a word: massacre. I have a word, too: ignorant. Here's another one: foolish. Here's another word: immature.

Oh, come on... I meant that the precise numbers we are getting might be incorrect. But even if we don't know the exact numbers, there is absolutely no dispute that over 10.000 civilians have been killed. This is a massacre.

Commander, have you been living under a rock? Do you have any idea what's involved in securing high value assets? Do you know what you're talking about? At all?

When was the last time you were at an airport? I don't know how they do it in Brazil, but I certainly know how we do it in the U.S. There are zones, layers, plural, of protection wrapping in concentric circles around the high value assets: the plane, the pilots, the crew and the passengers. The first visible zone, if you're pating attention and know what to look for extends 1 mile beyond the airport. 1 mile. 1 mile before crossing the "border" into the airport each and every individual approaching the airport is passing through a security corridor. But you have no idea, for good reason.

Not only that. There are no perfect physical barriers. Every wall has its weakness. All it takes is time, motivation, and effort. Trust me, I know. That's why here in the U.S. dev-gru and others are continuously pen-testing. And we never share our standards and practices. Loose lips sink ships. Security from obscurity and consealment. Always. You and yours have no idea what's involved in protecting human life from those who are committed, religiously, to ending it. Because, the more we reveal of our standards and practices, the easier it is to defeat them. Yes, that means, ignorant fools will armchair quarterback and criticise. Guess what? We don't care. We know so much more about what's actually going on, and what's required to establish peace and security. And. We will do them regardless of your opinions. I asked for specifics, you brought a farse.

There is no perfect solution, and there will never be. We either grow up and understand that or we become like children stomping everything close to us because we didn't get what we wanted.

You don't know how many civilians have been killed, sir. And the ones that have been killed... you don't know why. Because of that, your opinions have very little impact on me.

Since you also don't know any of that, do you also hold your own opinions to the same standard?

You are conversing with a seasoned professional. There are plenty of others who will engage in shallow speculative criticism. I am not one of them. If you would like to have a conversation with me, you'll need to step it up, sir.

You care? Great. You're smart? Awesome! Listen, learn, take notes if you need to. But as it stands now, I see no reason to continue this discussion. Come back when you're more educated on the conflict and the principles of war and security.

Have a pleasant rest of your day

*yawn*

 

[ImmortalFlame]

And who started it, and who now is turning down a U.S. cease-fire proposal that Israel has accepted?

Do you think "they started it" is a justified and reasonable response when a state commits war crimes against civilians?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

See? The topic was the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals. The subject is not the killing of civilians. Changing the subject to the killing of civilians concedes the point: the destruction of homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals is neccessary, because otherwise the attackers get a free-pass as long as they have homes, schools, mosques, and hospitals as a safe harbor.

I can't believe I missed this. Holy cow.

Literally, "committing war crimes is necessary, because as long as there are homes, schools, mosques and hospitals in Gaza, TERRORISTS MIGHT HIDE IN THEM. In fact, to NOT DESTROY THEM gives the terrorists A FREE PASS."

Unironic, 100%, absolutely indisputable pro-war crime position.

How can any reasonable human being think like this??

"Oh the terrorists came from this city containing millions of civilians?? Well, I guess that means we can LITERALLY OBLITERATE EVERYTHING IN THE ENTIRE CITY, INCLUDING DELIBERATELY TARGETING CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE, HOMES, SCHOOLS, MOSQUES AND HOSPITALS because, like, otherwise the terrorists win."

Seriously. Do some people just not believe there is such a concept as "war crimes"? Is that not something people are aware of?