Koldo
Outstanding Member
Did you read on the 'why'?
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Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Did you read on the 'why'?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Hamas was and is the duly elected government for Gaza, and it is they who started this on 10-7 with cheers coming from Gaza and many others in the Arab world.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
I think this is what @ImmortalFlame misses in this conflict
How Hamas just continues ignoring the situation and they lead their people to further anihilation.They don't care for the lifes of their people , they just continue with their agenda.
It's very sad that most people don't see what kind of evil is Hamas.
Son of Hamas:
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's not something I miss. In fact it's something I acknowledge constantly. But how does "Hamas perpetrated a massacre and don't care about civilian deaths in Gaza" mean "therefore, war crimes on Gazan civilians by Israel can be blamed on Hamas"? Especially when you look at the very title of this thread. If we all agree that Hamas don't care about civilian deaths in Gaza, why have so many people decided that whether or not the mass deaths of the civilians in Gaza should be stopped only when Hamas - who don't care about them - choose to surrender?
How does that logic follow? Am I taking crazy pills?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Have you even been in the region and talked with people living there?
There are tens of thousands of Israelis who have moved away from the northern border because of Hezbollah's missiles and rockets. So, what you are doing is basically siding with the perpetrators and blaming Israel for defending itself. Now Hamas is rejecting an American ceasefire proposal that Israel has accepted.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
Therefore, literally all Gazans deserve to be held accountable and die horribly, and Israel is not responsible for its actions in how it chooses to deal with terrorists.
Good to know.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes, I've seen this before, and what he said should be seen by all here. So, thanks for posting this.
Yes. My signature celebrates one of them.
Many of "us Jews" are capable of acknowledging the Nakba while, simultaneously condemning Hamas culpability in triggering and perpetuating the current tragedy, while others almost begrudgingly give lip service to "Bring Them Home" while bemoaning "genocide" - a term preferentially thrown at "us Jews."
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Dimi95
Прaвославие!
Honestly , only the state of Israel should answer this question.They are the current executors , not we.
Yes , but you ask me questions that only the state of Israel should answer.This is their operation.Their system should answer this questions.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Why don't you answer my question? Did you or did you not read on why Hamas is not accepting it?
Israel is not defending itself. That is just war propaganda. And no, I am not siding with Hamas.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
I'm not sure expecting a state to hold itself to a reasonable standard is very wise. I think we're all in the place to judge whether or not Hamas' actions are sufficient to justify war crimes against civilians in Gaza, and I'm constantly shocked by the people who seem to have judged that it does; although they stop short of explicitly stating so, it is almost always the conclusion of their arguments.
Again, if we're not in a position to judge their actions independently, the very concept of war crimes becomes a mockery. Why do we not extend this generosity to Hamas? Obviously, because what they did was blatantly unjustified and evil. I feel the same way about what the Israeli state is perpetrating.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
Well , Israel did not start all of this , that's for sure,however that doesn't mean they are handling the situation the best.
After 1948 Israel agreed on the 2 state solution , the Arabs rejected and wanted only the existence of Palestinian state.The Jews were outnumbered in that period and still menaged to resist them and the influence of the other Arab countries.The Jews did not start this conflinct.They will legal 'migrants' after WW II.
They were defending themselfs from the begining , and now because they have progressed it looks like they are the bad ones in this picture.They have showned however with how they deal this conflinct that they are neither the good cite.
I stay on that that two wrongs don't make a right.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
According to Blinken, Hamas keeps making additions to their proposal, plus their leader recently said that Hamas is winning the propaganda campaign.
Israel is "not defending itself"? How about the roughly 160 rockets fired out of Gaza into Israel about 2 weeks ago? Israel is just supposed to take it without responding? Did the U.S. do that after 9-11? How about after Pearl Harbor? etc.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
You glossed over some pretty key details, there. First, the land that the Palestinians lived on - and had for generations - was being given to Jewish settlers under the British mandate. Palestinians had no say whatsoever. To say they "started it" is to ignore the fact that what should have been their land was just taken from them by force, and early militias within the newly established Israel were very quick to seize territory outside of the territory they had been given in the British mandate and committed multiple war crimes and ethnic cleansing in doing so.
Nakba - Wikipedia
Do you really blame the people in Palestine for not wanting their land to be taken from them? It's pretty obvious that when you take land from people there is going to be violent resistance from them. That should be obvious. And in what way does that justify either the Nakba or the continual, illegal annexation of Palestine and the war crimes in Gaza?
The fact that you see events that happened nearly 100 years ago as contiguous with apportioning blame for current events is utterly bizarre. Do you believe that events in 1948 means that the Israeli state cannot be engaging in war crimes today?
Then please stop revising history and implying that it's Palestinians fault that they were ethnically cleansed.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
How do you know that you see a picture from Gaza and not some old one from Syria?
You are the one who oftenly points to Israel , haven't you noticed?
Israel current action is not justifiable , but the orign of this conflinct is very different from what is now happening.
This did not started October 7th or 20 years ago.It started 1948.
Ofc they need to answer for this , then why is it hard to accept that the orign of this conflinct in the first place is not because of Israel?
Because Hamas aimed to this , and Israel played their game.This is political analysis , it has nothing to do with emotion.
What Israel is doing right know and what Hamas did are two separate discussions.As the orign of this problem is.
ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
That's your argument? Conspiracy theories?
I have noticed, yes. I point at war crimes committed by Israel and say "The Israeli state did that". And the issue is...?
"The fact is that what is happening is completely unjustified... HOWEVER"
Nope, that's not how this works. It's either unjustified or it's justified. History doesn't justify it, and repeatedly bringing the history into it doesn't make it any more justified. It's irrelevant. It may be relevant when considering a broader solution to the conflict, but it is not relevant to whether or not war crimes are a justified response in this instance. I won't accept this logic from people who say Israel's continual oppression of the Palestinian people means that Hamas' incursion on 10/7 was a justified act of liberatory violence, so why should I accept this kind of reasoning in the other direction?
It could have started a million years ago. It still wouldn't change the moral judgement of whether or not war crimes against civilians are justified. How do you not get this?
I don't care about the broader origin of the conflict right now. I care about the tens of thousands of people who are dying (to be clear, on both sides) and continuing war crimes and human rights abuses that continue to kill more every day. Why do you think the origin of the conflict is relevant?
Fine. But that has nothing to do with whether or not what Israel is doing is justified and can be judged as such.
So why do you keep dragging the origin of the conflict into a discussion about what Israel is doing?
Your hate towards Islam and it's religious leaders has blinded you between a clear conflict of oppressors vs oppressed.
Dimi95
Прaвославие!
They took that land in the first place as consequence of conquest.
Either you stay consistent in analysis , either you don't.
No , they had the say and they had the oportunity to settle but they chose to start a war.
That is not their land in the first place.
They came to this land.
They were minorities however through History.
Jews were minority for a good time , don't forget that., and early militias within the newly established Israel were very quick to seize territory outside of the territory they had been given in the British mandate and committed multiple war crimes and ethnic cleansing in doing so.
Nakba - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
How do you know that is their land?
Would you also say that for the Muslim conquest?
Every decision of the Palestinian people has been wrong untill this day.
They are the ones with no room to negotiate in the first place.They have given the right to Hamas to speak for the Palestinian people.
When you vote , you give someone the right to speak in your name.
Palestinians are surrounded by terrirosts who want to lead them.
But you don't find it bizare when you say that is their land , do you?
These events just show it all started , that's it.
That's your conclusion , not mine.
The truth is Palestinians and Hamas have took upon themselves to be brunt of the resistance to Western Imperialism. Zionism came about to impose oppression and keep Muslims from establishing democracies or even an Islamic Caliphate where all Muslim countries are united.
Freemasons tricked the Jewish population into Zionism and Christians as well.
This is not just about Palestine.
The Islam we are taught is the one decided by Western Imperialists. Iran is hated because it's free. Saudi Arabia and Bahrain for example which are both dictatorships are loved because they are under western imperialisms.
Unfortunately, Palestinians bare the brunt of the conflict between Islam and Satanic West. Russia use to trust the west, but is now siding with Iran and the resistance towards imperalism.
What would will be interesting is the role Africa plays soon, what side they will choose, and who will they will to trades with. Russia and China out of all people might be changing Africa towards a more Brics Friendly and the sanctions on Iran become nothing in this case.
Iran's policy use to be all about re-establishing Islamic rulers chosen by the people. This was seen as a huge threat. Western wants to keep dictators. Israel sees in security interest to not allow Muslims to choose their leaders too.
Anyways, I am reminded of the verse Musa's (a) companions complaining "We were bothered a lot before you and now after you (coming)"
As for me, I believe US is literally head mastered by Satan with Gog (the one who with Satan is direct companion to) and Magog (sorcerers who follow the sorcerer Gog). They are just trying to delay the appearance of Imam Mahdi (a).
Satan always causes people to fear his friends and that is his main plan and it's a weak plan. If people fear God instead and rely on God, and continue to persevere, things will be set aright.
If they chase Dunya, then love of Dunya is a polytheism that won't be forgiven. Whoever desires the life of this world per Quran has nothing but the fire in the next.
Freemasons tricked the Jewish population into Zionism and Christians as well.
This is not just about Palestine.
The Islam we are taught is the one decided by Western Imperialists. Iran is hated because it's free. Saudi Arabia and Bahrain for example which are both dictatorships are loved because they are under western imperialisms.
Unfortunately, Palestinians bare the brunt of the conflict between Islam and Satanic West. Russia use to trust the west, but is now siding with Iran and the resistance towards imperalism.
What would will be interesting is the role Africa plays soon, what side they will choose, and who will they will to trades with. Russia and China out of all people might be changing Africa towards a more Brics Friendly and the sanctions on Iran become nothing in this case.
Iran's policy use to be all about re-establishing Islamic rulers chosen by the people. This was seen as a huge threat. Western wants to keep dictators. Israel sees in security interest to not allow Muslims to choose their leaders too.
Anyways, I am reminded of the verse Musa's (a) companions complaining "We were bothered a lot before you and now after you (coming)"
As for me, I believe US is literally head mastered by Satan with Gog (the one who with Satan is direct companion to) and Magog (sorcerers who follow the sorcerer Gog). They are just trying to delay the appearance of Imam Mahdi (a).
Satan always causes people to fear his friends and that is his main plan and it's a weak plan. If people fear God instead and rely on God, and continue to persevere, things will be set aright.
If they chase Dunya, then love of Dunya is a polytheism that won't be forgiven. Whoever desires the life of this world per Quran has nothing but the fire in the next.
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ImmortalFlame
Woke gremlin
So, since you don't seem to care if people use violent means to seize territory from people, why did you deliberately leave out the facts of the seizure of land from the Palestinians?
Suuure, they had the choice of either continuing to live on only a fraction of the land that they had previously lived on for generations, or to violently resist what was happening (which was, again, obviously going to happen) and thus be held all collectively responsible and be ethnically cleansed.
Cool.
Ah, the old "nobody owns any land except through conquest, so it's all a-okay" argument. Tell me, if in response to the British mandate the Palestinians literally killed every Jewish settler, destroyed their history, wiped out Jewish settlements (including ones that had existed their for generations) and then continued to commit crimes against Jewish populations in the region, would you be implying that that was a perfectly valid and reasonable response? And would you deliberately be leaving out important details in order to paint Jewish communities as the sole aggressors in this case?
What relevance does that have? You think that means that Israeli militias have the right to annex territory, murder people, de-home more than 700,000 people, raze villages and delete entire cultural histories?
You know that Muslims as a minority in many countries, too. I guess that means that anything Hamas does is fine and shouldn't be acknowledged (or we should actively pretend they don't exist) in order to portray Muslims in all circumstances as victims and never perpetrators.
Come on.
They had lived there for generations. Many of them alongside Jews and Jewish communities who had been there just as long.
I would say it of literally ALL conquest. Do you seriously want to suggest that violent resistance wasn't an inevitable consequence of Britain literally giving thousands of miles of land that had been settled for generations away and forcing the people who lived their to move away? Did you think the local population would just pick up and leave, happy as Larry?
Disgusting over-generalization and an appalling broad brush.
That's hilarious. They're literally dis-empowered and Gaza is little more than an open-air prison. Israel has one of the most highly funded militaries in the world and the backing and veto power of the world's largest superpower. They can never negotiate from a position of any kind of power, and the failure of their leadership to do so is not a fault of the Palestinian people. This is unironically a "might-makes-right" argument.
After fifty-plus years of oppression, people tend to develop extremist tendencies. Remember, you're the one who wants to judge things in terms of the history of the conflict - except, when Palestinians do bad thing, you see it is a moral failing on their part. Weird how you have that double standard.
Gee, I wonder why.
I don't find it bizarre to suggest that people who have lived on land for generations have a more legitimate claim to it than an imperialist nation that simply claims legal ownership of it.
"It started" is obvious. What I'm curious about is why you deliberately misrepresented events to indicate Palestinians as the sole agitators, deliberately missing out the British involvement, the partition and the Nakba.
No, it's what you keep doing. Stop it.
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