Why Evil?

[truthofscripture]

Laws came about from cavemen starting to gather in groups, - and needing to keep the peace. These ideas grow over time, and become accepted laws.

And I know you understand how the non-religious feel when you make - all you need is faith, statements.

It is like saying - per your last sentence -

Pasta Monster gives us the opportunity to have the greatest joy, providing only that we have enough faith to follow him.

In other words, - you need more than faith statements to make non-believers - into believers.

*

Well, I can honestly say that nothing can be said to non-believers to make them into believers. If they don't want to believe, they simply won't.

 

[Kolibri]

God gives us the opportunity to have the greatest joy, providing only that we have enough faith to follow him.

I think people forget that faith is defined by scripture. And as such it is not, nor ever can be, credulity.

The definition is at Hebrew 11:1. The rest of the chapter is examples of it being put into action.

What is faith? Faith is focused on two kinds of things that we can not see.

"Faith is (1) the assured expectation of what is hoped for, (2) the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."

It is a title-deed to events that have not yet happened, and it is convincing evidence of things we can not literally see with our eyes.

We can have faith that we are living in the "last days" by looking at 2 Tim 3:1-7 and we see how this prophesy matches the world around us. When we see that the times are critical and that as a whole the world is full of people that are "lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, [and] having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power" we can be convinced. The evidence is right before our eyes. Now we have a basis for hoping that the other prophesies of things we can hope for are true too. Now we can have faith that there is a God that can accurately see the future when it suits his purpose to do so.

Or we can have faith by reasoning on Hebrew 3:4

"Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God."

If I said that that building over there just happened by chance people would think I was crazy. There is too much design that shows there was an architect. When I then look at the design found in the things around us and within us, and see the complexity that far outweighs anything man as made, and when man looks to natural things to figure out how to improve on their own designs, I am convinced that there is a Designer, a Grand Architect. That is faith.

When I say pasta that has been sitting for months in my fridge is alive. Yes, I can have faith in that too, provided I have experience and learned a little about mold.

But try as I might, if that pasta was made fresh yesterday and kept cool, that "pasta monster" just does not exist. I can believe it, but that does not make it so. I have to ask. Where is the evidence?

 

[Caligula]

In the beginning God created everything. Even evil.

For me this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you mean God created evil? Can you, please, be more specific?
This statement bares the same logic as saying that God created probability. ...A simple play of words.

 

[morphesium]

And did it solve anything; killing innocent people, especially children? Nope. The violent and sinful are right back with us. God's omniscient function button must have been on the blink that year.

Quite right. He hated the homosexuality that was going on in the city so he burned down a whole city (women and children included). Nice guy? Hardly. Evil guy? Absolutely.

Is this suppose to excuse his killing them? He can do whatever vile thing he wants to people and it's a good thing because he's god? Descriptive words only apply to god when they dignify him? Get real!! This is a guy who admitted to CREATING evil for crying out loud. (I side with the plurality of translations of Isaiah 45:7)

So, for an all-powerful god who can do whatever he wants to effect change this was his best option: kill all the Medianite people including children and women? Only if you're evil. Only an evil person would kill innocent people when he didn't have to.


Yeah, sure!

Men who just got done killing every female who has known a man intimately by sleeping with him are not going to take up Moses on his offer to bed young girls? Or do you honestly think that immediately after giving "sleeping with [men]" as the reason to kill women, Moses meant that these men should "spare" the young girls for themselves by taking them in as house keepers? get real! Moreover, "spare for yourselves" means to spare for your purpose, not set them free.

Numbers 31:17-18Common English Bible
17 Now kill every male child and every female who has known a man intimately by sleeping with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known a man intimately by sleeping with him, spare for yourselves. ​

As for the raping, do you really think that when these girls were approached by such men they said, "Oh good, all these strange men who just killed every male child and every female who has known a man intimately by sleeping with him will now have intercourse with us. Whoopee!"?

These Gods and Prophets are the first one to be sent to Hell. Humans have much better ethics.

 

[rrosskopf]

Laws came about from cavemen starting to gather in groups, - and needing to keep the peace. These ideas grow over time, and become accepted laws.

Moses wasn't a cave man, and neither was Joseph Smith, yet both had revelations from God defining proper social behavior. The law of Moses was a giant leap forward from the Code of Hammurabi. Even that did not come from cave men.

 

[rrosskopf]

And I know you understand how the non-religious feel when you make - all you need is faith, statements.

I'm not an evangelical Christian, so I don't make "all you need is faith" statements. One cannot fake faith. I don't even define faith the same as Evangelical Christians. The idea of believing in something without any evidence is ludicrous to me. I believe in testing things to see if they are true. You heard the word "faith" and freaked. I was speaking about the type of faith that one man has in another. Our whole system of trade is based on faith. We make agreements and trust the other party to fulfill their end of the agreement, if we fulfill ours. That is faith, or confidence or trust. If you were to meet God today, you might gain a knowledge that some other-worldly entity exists, but you might still have no faith that he will keep his promises, and you might not believe in his social ideas. So faith in the existence of God is pretty worthless, unless a person actually builds a relationship with him and learns to trust him. If you haven't met him in some way, then how in the world could you suddenly have trust in him, let alone believe that he exists?

 

[rrosskopf]

For me this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you mean God created evil? Can you, please, be more specific?
This statement bares the same logic as saying that God created probability. ...A simple play of words.

I have to agree with you. It isn't like evil is a substance that one can measure in a test tube. Evil doesn't exist without laws, so I suppose the person who creates the laws creates evil, but I don't see that as being meaningful. We have laws because we have agency, so it could also be said that the person who gave us agency created evil, but that doesn't make any more sense than the first statement. We could define evil as anything that is plotting our destruction, since evil is very personal in nature. It is somewhat ambiguous, but it does have some value. Did God create Satan? In LDS belief, the intelligences of man are eternal, so at least part of Satan is not a creation of God, but someone who was given agency and decided to use it to fight against God.

 

[Ingledsva]

Well, I can honestly say that nothing can be said to non-believers to make them into believers. If they don't want to believe, they simply won't.

Moses wasn't a cave man, and neither was Joseph Smith, yet both had revelations from God defining proper social behavior. The law of Moses was a giant leap forward from the Code of Hammurabi. Even that did not come from cave men.

I think you are purposefully not understanding.

Rudimentary laws started when people had to gather together. These ideas become more sophisticated over time. We add new laws over time to deal with what is happening NOW. Such as laws on fetal cell research. Moses (supposedly) put in common sense laws for his people at that time, - many of which would already have been in play. Obviously some of those laws are also NOT good, like slave ownership, or murdering people whom work on the holy day. Joseph Smith CLAIMS revelation from God, - however most of these are just common sense. Moses' laws were NOT a giant leap from Hammurabi's Code, nor was that code the only such around at that time. Absolutely ALL of these laws evolved over time, and culture, from cavemen having to live together without killing each other.

*

 

[truthofscripture]

I think you are purposefully not understanding.

Rudimentary laws started when people had to gather together. These ideas become more sophisticated over time. We add new laws over time to deal with what is happening NOW. Such as laws on fetal cell research. Moses (supposedly) put in common sense laws for his people at that time, - many of which would already have been in play. Obviously some of those laws are also NOT good, like slave ownership, or murdering people whom work on the holy day. Joseph Smith CLAIMS revelation from God, - however most of these are just common sense. Moses' laws were NOT a giant leap from Hammurabi's Code, nor was that code the only such around at that time. Absolutely ALL of these laws evolved over time, and culture, from cavemen having to live together without killing each other.

*

Moses didn't create those laws, God did.

 

[Kolibri]

I think you are purposefully not understanding.

Rudimentary laws started when people had to gather together. These ideas become more sophisticated over time. We add new laws over time to deal with what is happening NOW. Such as laws on fetal cell research. Moses (supposedly) put in common sense laws for his people at that time, - many of which would already have been in play. Obviously some of those laws are also NOT good, like slave ownership, or murdering people whom work on the holy day. ... Absolutely ALL of these laws evolved over time, and culture, from cavemen having to live together without killing each other.

*

this pre-supposes that there is no Jehovah - no divine lawgiver - no ultimate person to be responsible to.

 

[Ingledsva]

I'm not an evangelical Christian, so I don't make "all you need is faith" statements. One cannot fake faith. I don't even define faith the same as Evangelical Christians. The idea of believing in something without any evidence is ludicrous to me. I believe in testing things to see if they are true. (1) You heard the word "faith" and freaked. I was speaking about the type of faith that one man has in another. (2) Our whole system of trade is based on faith. We make agreements and trust the other party to fulfill their end of the agreement, if we fulfill ours. That is faith, or confidence or trust. If you were to meet God today, you might gain a knowledge that some other-worldly entity exists, but you might still have no faith that he will keep his promises, and you might not believe in his social ideas. (3) So faith in the existence of God is pretty worthless, unless a person actually builds a relationship with him and learns to trust him. If you haven't met him in some way, then how in the world could you suddenly have trust in him, let alone believe that he exists?

(1) First - you have a strange idea of what freaked means. I gave a logical reply. Such Faith statements, are no different then saying you just need faith in the boogieman, fae, or whichever God, etc. They mean nothing to a non-believer in such beings.

(2) Our system is not based on faith. We have contracts, and courts of law when the contract isn't fulfilled. And the very obvious elephant in the room - real people, whom we can go after if they break their word, - not an invisible being.

(3) Obviously you didn't read that I was raised Christian - believed - and read the Bible. HOWEVER - I then started to actually STUDY the Bible, and realized the Skitzo murderer in it, - could not be God. There is far too much crap - murder - slavery - rape, etc., for it to be the word of God.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

Moses didn't create those laws, God did.

That is your belief - and you are welcome to it.

The laws include slavery, rape, owning women, etc. I do NOT believe they are the laws of any God, - but instead what EVIL MEN want to do!

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[Ingledsva]

this pre-supposes that there is no Jehovah - no divine lawgiver - no ultimate person to be responsible to.

My first question would be - why shouldn't I believe that? I have been shown no proof that this skitzo, murdering God, is real. My reading of the Bible shows it to be the work of rather evil men.

And second - I am Agnostic.

*

 

[Skwim]

For me this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What do you mean God created evil? Can you, please, be more specific?

Might want to ask god. He's the one who said he did it.

From post 55

Isaiah 45:7 (ASV)
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (BRG)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (DARBY)
7 forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (DRA)
7 I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (ERV)
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (GNV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (JUB)
7 I form the light and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I am the LORD that does all this.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (AKJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (LEB)
7 I form light and I create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am Yahweh; I do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (WBT)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (WYC)
7 forming light, and making darknesses, making peace, and forming evil; I am the Lord, doing all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 (YLT)
7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

​

This statement bares the same logic as saying that God created probability. ...A simple play of words.

You accuse god of playing with words!! My, my, what bravado. Hope it doesn't get you kicked out of the club.

 

[Kolibri]

Hebrew word raʽ is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context.

Just because these translations picked the word "evil" for their rendering does not mean it was the correct choice for this verse.

Then who are we arguing with? God or the translators?

Framer of light and creator of darkness,
maker of welfare and creator of calamity,
I Jehovah am the doer of all these things.
- Byington

I form light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, Jehovah, am doing all these things.
- New World Translation

 

[Baladas]

No real God would be murdering lowly humans right and left, - or purposely be having humans be savage animals, murdering other groups for land and slaves.

Also - I was raised Christian, and read it with Christian eyes, led by preachers, - THEN - I slowed down and actually started studying it. Hence - I am no longer a Christian. No real God would be such a skitzo murderer.

*

This was the final nail in my Christian coffin as well. I was a theology major and had been a youth leader for around 8 years. I studied the scriptures in depth and I genuinely planned to become a pastor. As time went on, I discovered things, like that the concept of hell doesn't even exist to the Jewish people.

One day I decided to read the story of Jericho, an old favorite of mine that inspired me to the point that I wrote a song about it. Upon reading through this again, I was horrified to read about the slaughter of every man, woman and child...and I was supposed to be amazed at the "kindness" of not murdering the woman who helped them siege the city?

I was outraged. I had read about these killings so many times, but I always found a way to blow them off or quickly explain them away. I couldn't this time, and none of my friends, fellow youth leaders, pastors (or any that I know around the world or found online) gave me a satisfactory answer.

 

[Skwim]

Hebrew word raʽ is variously translated as “bad,” “gloomy,” “ugly,” “evil,” “calamitous,” “malignant,” “ungenerous,” and “envious,” depending upon the context.

Not in Isaiah 45:7.

Just because these translations picked the word "evil" for their rendering does not mean it was the correct choice for this verse.

And just what is the correct choice? FYI, "Evil" was the plurality in the 47 translations I looked at; half again as many as the runner up "woe."

Then who are we arguing with? God or the translators?

"We"? I'm not arguing with anyone, just presenting the facts, "Evil" is by far the most popular translation." But what's most telling here is that I found ten different interpretations of raʽ in Isaiah 45:7. Seems god didn't much care what the translators did with his Word.

 

[rrosskopf]

Rudimentary laws started when people had to gather together. These ideas become more sophisticated over time. We add new laws over time to deal with what is happening NOW.

Spoken like someone who lives in a police state. You can't even imagine what life was like before policemen. Once upon a time, in the not so distant past, it was perfectly legal to murder your son or daughter. One could even murder their neighbor without fear of retribution from any kind of policeman or court. You have lived in this safe cocoon all your life, and can't even imagine what life was like 5000 years ago, long after the cave man.
Even as late as 200 years ago, the only justice for many in North America was Frontier Justice. Men who were outraged at the acts of others took it upon themselves to set things straight. One hundred and fifty years ago, people gave no thought to due process, but gathered mobs together with fiery propaganda, planning to wipe the Mormons from off of the earth, men, women and children. Of the 200 men that murdered Joseph and Hyrum Smith, not one was brought to justice. There was a complete breakdown of the justice system, and the Federal government did nothing to intervene.
When riots broke out over the Rodney King incident, the justice system broke down once again, and no one could rely on the police to do anything. The police wouldn't even go into the poor neighborhoods, let alone enforce the law. The only people who were safe from the looting and burning were those with their own guns. Individuals must ultimately take up the cause of justice, when there is no justice to be found. Our justice system is fragile, and very little stands between it and the complete collapse of our society.

Moses (supposedly) put in common sense laws for his people at that time, - many of which would already have been in play.

That is very naive and not at all what happened. Before a system of laws was put into place, people had to find their own justice, and death was the penalty for almost everything. Kings ruled with blood and horror.

Such Faith statements, are no different then saying you just need faith in the boogieman, fae, or whichever God, etc. They mean nothing to a non-believer in such beings.

At the very least, they should mean that someone else does believe in such things. I'm not going to pretend that I don't believe just because there are people out there who haven't met God.

Our system is not based on faith. We have contracts, and courts of law when the contract isn't fulfilled. And the very obvious elephant in the room - real people, whom we can go after if they break their word, - not an invisible being.

If you thought for one minute that you would have to take each and every person to court, every time you bought a loaf of bread, you would never buy bread. People bought and sold bread long before there was any kind of justice system. It is an act of faith. You wouldn't buy bread from someone, if you didn't trust them. Traditionally, taxes are paid to invisible beings - kings - men who most people have never seen. People trust or have faith that they will end up in prison if they don't pay their taxes, and if they don't have that faith (and many don't), they do end up in prison, or have their earnings garnered. If there was no penalty, people would stop paying taxes.

There is far too much crap - murder - slavery - rape, etc., for it to be the word of God.

That sounds suspiciously like the creed of many atheists, who adopted it without ever doing a fair study of the Bible. Murder is never condoned, but killing is sometimes condoned. Sometimes it is right to kill someone. Sometimes it is right to employ slaves. I can't imagine that rape is ever condoned. Do you have a reference for that?

 

[Caligula]

I have to agree with you. It isn't like evil is a substance that one can measure in a test tube. Evil doesn't exist without laws, so I suppose the person who creates the laws creates evil, but I don't see that as being meaningful. We have laws because we have agency, so it could also be said that the person who gave us agency created evil, but that doesn't make any more sense than the first statement. We could define evil as anything that is plotting our destruction, since evil is very personal in nature. It is somewhat ambiguous, but it does have some value. Did God create Satan? In LDS belief, the intelligences of man are eternal, so at least part of Satan is not a creation of God, but someone who was given agency and decided to use it to fight against God.

Right! If it has already been stated that humans and other entities were created with free will, then the remark that God has also created evil would only add to confusion. Leaving the human factor behind we can talk about the "evil" that comes from nature (natural disasters). Not even in that case can we talk about "creation" of evil as chemical proprieties and the laws of physics are more than enough. There's no need for creation or intervention at all in order to experience evil.
As I see it, a god that can alter free-will or the laws of physics can only allow for evil to happen, rather than create it. At most he could have created the conditions necessary for evil to take place ...but not evil itself.

Be aware that I'm using examples I don not endorse only for the sake of argument (for example, in reality, I don't think free-will is a coherent notion). At a profound level nothing I've wrote makes sense to me but I just want to have a meaningful conversation .

 

[Caligula]

Might want to ask god. He's the one who said he did it.

I don't care at all for what anyone has to say if it doesn't make sense to me .

You accuse god of playing with words!! My, my, what bravado. Hope it doesn't get you kicked out of the club.

I have no reason to do such a thing. Why would I accuse an abstract notion?