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Why Has Israel Killed 40,000 Civilians In Gaza?

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The population of Gaza is about 2.3 million, so 40,000 is around 1.73% of the strip's entire population. To put this into perspective, an equivalent number of Americans relative to the population of the US, estimated at 333 million, is 5.76 million.

How is this "relatively small"? Imagine if someone looked at an equivalent number of civilians killed in any other country and said something like that. Those people weren't mere statistics; many of us elsewhere knew many of them—they were our neighbors, friends, classmates, and coworkers. Entire families have been wiped out, many of them spanning more than one generation.
Are you saying it is 40,000 definite civilians or all casualties including soldiers? Its a relatively small military force for 2.3 million people given that they train the children to be warriors and given that fighting Israel is touted as very important in their society. USA citizens aren't trained as soldiers from childhood, and most never perform military service at any time in our lives. It is a possible career path but only one of many. Therefore our smaller percentage makes sense, but secondly it makes sense because a smaller percentage is needed since the population is large. A million strong is strong enough for most purposes.
The beliefs you listed are far from universal among Muslims, and there's no belief in mainstream Islam that the wealthy are any more or less righteous than other people. I have lived my entire life among Muslims and never heard anyone express such a belief either. Also, most Muslim countries are capitalist, especially the Gulf ones, and while Islam doesn't forbid monarchy, it doesn't forbid an electoral system of government either.

A lot of the statements I have seen about Muslims and Palestinians (whether Muslim or otherwise) over the years seem to me to have been said about them in one source or another, not by any representative number thereof. Many successful and prosperous countries exist, and the vast majority of them are barely on the radar of the average Muslim. Not that non-Muslim supporters of Palestinian civilians don't exist, but even if one limits the scope of the assertion (that the objections to the IDF's actions in Gaza are related to Israel's prosperity) to Muslims, it doesn't hold water when examined more closely.
Thank you for correcting me about wealth and what Muslims think about it.


I have seen nothing that indicates that the vast majority of the opposition to the current bombing of Gaza is due to anything besides opposition to killing tens of thousands of civilians. No one appreciates seeing their people being killed or maimed, nor do they appreciate seeing countries like the US and Germany talk about "democracy" and "human rights" in different contexts while supplying many of the weapons that have been used to massacre tens of thousands of civilians and providing financial and geopolitical support for such actions. The opposition is a natural reaction that anyone in the same position would have and any country doing what the US has been doing would receive.

There are many Western countries that are either viewed generally favorably or are barely noticed in many of the countries where negative sentiments toward the US are widespread. A few examples are Norway, Iceland, and Romania. There's just no reason for most people to have ill feelings toward those countries, whereas the US has an extensive history of destructive and hostile interventionism in Latin America, Asia, and the Middle East, and it is consequently seen far more negatively by far more people. This is not a sentiment that is remotely unique to a subset of Muslims, and I don't see what said sentiment has to do with trying to embarrass Western values or ideals—unless those are synonymous with support for bombing of civilians, but I know they are not.
If people are told by the UN and by official news sites that there is a genocide then that is the information they will act on.

The USA certainly has been involved in destructive behavior, and these can be another motivation to undermine the USA, using its position on the security council and its support for Israel. We are talking though about over a hundred different representative each with their own motivations.

The death tolls reported by the Gaza Health Ministry in past conflicts have been verified and found overall reliable by various sources and observers. I mentioned this in a previous post, so I'll quote that part of the post here:
My real concern is the UN accusation of genocide which is misleading, as it suggests an intent to kill 2.3 million people. Considering all the funding sent to aid Gaza, the use of which is misreported and which is instead used for weaponry, the Gaza Health Ministry seems somehow connected to both Hamas and the UN. The UN pleads stupidity and ignorance about the funding. They somehow don't notice so much money disappearing into weaponry. Amazing how disinterested everyone has been in where all this aid money has been going. The Ministry of Health hasn't been short on funds at all? Then perhaps they have not been part of the subterfuge.

If the Hamas Ministry of Health has given accurate death statistics all this time good for them.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Also, one of the patterns I keep seeing in discussions about the war on Gaza is that acknowledgement of one warring party's excesses or atrocities is seen by some people as support for the other warring party, not as mere opposition to killing civilians regardless of their nationality or religion. (Just to be clear, I'm not talking about you or saying you're doing this; I'm talking generally.) Hamas has committed atrocities and murdered civilians. The IDF has committed atrocities and murdered civilians. These two statements can both be true simultaneously, and I doubt peace will be achieved unless both—Hamas and the Israeli government, not Palestinian or Israeli civilians—are held accountable for what they have done.
Yes, I do see that, too. I avoid getting into a conversation like that.

This is in my view the function of Hamas and of all the people stuck in Gaza. They are there to provoke this kind of action from Israel, so that it can be judged. I want the UN to pay for its part in causing this fracas and for continuing to encourage it. I want its self praising web page removed. I want any USA officials who might be involved in the embezzlements of Hamas strung up, defamed and fined until they are on green stamps. Somebody is to blame who is not being held responsible. Somebody allowed aid money to be channeled out of Gaza, didn't hold Hamas to the conditions of this aid. This didn't just happen. But maybe it did.

Perhaps there was a fumble, and so no one knew what was happening to the aid money. Perhaps there is an explanation why the UN allowed the UNRWA schools to do what they did. Still, with that kind of public money I would expect the UN to assign someone to track what became of it.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You don’t but unless you can come up with a better idea what’s the point .
You're seriously asking "whats the point" in opposing war crimes?

Do you think committing war crimes can be a better idea than... not committing war crimes?

I know,the IDF could send a seek and destroy mission to only target the Al Qaasam brigades,problem is how do you distinguish them from civilians,like the Taleban they don’t wear distinguishing uniforms,we could all sign a petition and send it to Sinwar (if we knew where he was hiding and demand they wear uniforms.
Again, the specifics are not my field of expertise. But it doesn't take some magical foresight to determine that engaging in acts of war that target or disproportionately harm civilians is still a possible thing, and there is a tonne of evidence that Israel are not only doing that, but are doing so with a willing disregard for civilians and in flagrant violation of international law.

Again, here are the links:

Please explain to me which of these widely-reported war crimes was a strategic necessity in the fight against Hamas? Was it the specific targeting of the homes of journalists, the illegal use of civilians as human shields, the illegal detention, execution and burying of civilians in mass graves, the destruction of burial grounds, the shooting of Israeli hostages, or the rape of Palestinian women and children?

It doesn’t,unlike the IDF soldiers The Al Qaasam brigades don’t wear uniforms so the civilian deaths are due to Hamass putting them in harms way,what a great government they have been.
Nobody is arguing Hamas are innocent. The argument is - whether Hamas are putting them in danger or no - it is the actions of the IDF and them showing, at the very least, a wilful disregard for the lives of civilians which means that they are guilty of committing war crimes. That's how war crimes work.
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
So once again: Most Israelis and Israeli Jews are "brown".
According to some, but not others. Fact is, Islamophobia leads many to believe that the lives of the average Muslim civilian are worth quantatively less than the lives of the average Israeli.

This isn't a conflict between white and brown, no matter how much you Americans want it to be that way.
Funny you should say this to a British person.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
My real concern is the UN accusation of genocide which is misleading, as it suggests an intent to kill 2.3 million people..
The UN exists for world security.
People like Trump exist to MAGA. They ignore UN resolutions at their own peril, and unfortunately
the rest of us to some degree.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
You're seriously asking "whats the point" in opposing war crimes?
I’m asking what’s the point of opposing civilian deaths without realising that Hamas could prevent it by not putting them in danger in the first place.
Do you think committing war crimes can be a better idea than... not committing war crimes?
No.
Again, the specifics are not my field of expertise. But it doesn't take some magical foresight to determine that engaging in acts of war that target or disproportionately harm civilians is still a possible thing, and there is a tonne of evidence that Israel are not only doing that, but are doing so with a willing disregard for civilians and in flagrant violation of international law.
The specifics are that urban warfare is the most difficult to fight,Hamas have played this game for so long,using schools and hospitals,any commander attacking such an area would calculate casualties civilian or military,Hamas as we know put their people in harms way on purpose.

The IDF also issued warnings of where they were going to attack,so again Hamas deliberately put civilians in harms way by not allowing them to move or protecting them.
Again, here are the links:

Please explain to me which of these widely-reported war crimes was a strategic necessity in the fight against Hamas? Was it the specific targeting of the homes of journalists, the illegal use of civilians as human shields, the illegal detention, execution and burying of civilians in mass graves, the destruction of burial grounds, the shooting of Israeli hostages, or the rape of Palestinian women and children?

Widely reported doesn’t make it true,there are many more reported crimes by Hamas.
Nobody is arguing Hamas are innocent. The argument is - whether Hamas are putting them in danger or no - it is the actions of the IDF and them showing, at the very least, a wilful disregard for the lives of civilians which means that they are guilty of committing war crimes. That's how war crimes work.
Hamas really mean “from the river to the sea” and so do the PLJ,Palestinian Islamic jihad who wilfully put their people in harms way,to protect their people,which is the duty of the government of Gaza,Hamas could have not sent people into Israel,killed a thousand people in the most horrific ways and compounded that with killing hostages in a most discusting way,they made choices and their people are suffering for it.

My take is that Israel after 6 wars and infitadas want an end to it this time,Israel are not blameless but whilst Hamas are functionan there will never be peace because they don’t want peace,ever,just the eradication of Israel.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
My take is that Israel after 6 wars and infitadas want an end to it this time..
If they 'want an end to it', they are going the wrong way about it.

They are 'emboldened' purely because they have western "ironclad" support. :rolleyes:
It's totally absurd, and always has been since the state of Israel was declared.

..nobody is "winning" .. it will just carry on getting worse and worse .. until .. until there is
no escape .. global annihilation. :expressionless:
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
If they 'want an end to it', they are going the wrong way about it.
Which way should they go?.
They are 'emboldened' purely because they have western "ironclad" support. :rolleyes:
It's totally absurd, and always has been since the state of Israel was declared.
Hamas has support too,maybe their allies are not actually friendly.
..nobody is "winning" .. it will just carry on getting worse and worse .. until .. until there is
no escape .. global annihilation. :expressionless:
Meh I wouldn’t go that far lol,it’s hard to get an outright win in these circumstances unless you go all the way imo.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Meh I wouldn’t go that far lol,it’s hard to get an outright win in these circumstances unless you go all the way imo.
Impossible .. they/you just will not succeed in killing or brainwashing all of the "Ishmaelites" :expressionless:

..so we just have to carry on with increased terrorism, war and insanity, because of the arrogance
of others .. until, as I say, global apocalypse.
 

England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
Impossible .. they/you just will not succeed in killing or brainwashing all of the "Ishmaelites" :expressionless:
Yes it’s true,many Arabs are “brainwashed”.
..so we just have to carry on with increased terrorism, war and insanity, because of the arrogance
of others .. until, as I say, global apocalypse.
That’s a choice,you don’t commit an act of terrorism by accident.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
According to some, but not others. Fact is, Islamophobia leads many to believe that the lives of the average Muslim civilian are worth quantatively less than the lives of the average Israeli.
"some" ... "many"

That's very specific.

It's still a matter of fact that the majority of Israelis are from the MENA region.
Just what it is.


Funny you should say this to a British person.
Well you see the Americans have the excuse of distance to the subject.
The closer you are the less excuse you have.

So what's your excuse to try and make it about skin colour?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
A thriving Israel is an embarrassment to all non-capitalist, all non-democratic, all Islamic governments. This comprises the majority of the UN governments. Israel has stellar performance as a small country relative to those around it which are mostly monarchies. Its existence is a black eye to Islam, too, in my opinion. Others are not able to compete, mostly because they believe in monarchies (caliphs), believe that the wealthy class is righteous (because the wealth is a sign of it), believe sharia is necessary (but the successful west and Israel prove its not) and believe that all Jews must eventually be eliminated (though not immediately). The composition of the UN is public knowledge. 49 non-democratic states out of 123. Many governments are threatened by western ideas and don't like the USA, which supports Israel (which supports western ideals). If not the majority then a large fraction of the 123 states are embarrassed by the success of the American experiment but more by Israel's success. These governments would benefit from embarrassing western ideas. Combine that with the many that tout Islam and its promise to eventually kill all Jews. That is a large portion of the UN.

The UN reports statistics about a fight about which it has a conflict of interest. It openly states that it obtains its statistics from Hamas. BBC, Al Jazeera also both have employed Hamas agents as journalists. This is the same Hamas that kills people for simply disagreeing. Many statistics are also supplied by Hamas. The OP statistics are sourceless, not provided. They are probably from Hamas, but the OP does not say.
That sounds more like Islamaphobia than fact.
For instance, Israel performs well because heavily supported amd propped up by Uncle Sam. That alone gives Israel a massive advantage over its neighbors, whom it has no real need to get along with or pursue peace because Uncle Sam will be behind Israel.
And it's am embarassment? How? Why? Who is embarrassed? Not faceless numbers, actual names. Yes, we know Israel has enemies, but the Palestinians they brought that hatred upon themselves by stealing their home and continuing to do so while economically crippling Gaza/West Bank in the process.
And, yes, they take the numbers given by the Gaza Health Ministry. Historically those numbers have been accurate and independently verified, and it's no different with Israel's genocide against Gaza.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That sounds more like Islamaphobia than fact.
Islam is synonymous with 'Subjugation'. If you are suggesting that I loathe the idea of being subjugated I cannot say for sure. I've never tried it that way.

For instance, Israel performs well because heavily supported amd propped up by Uncle Sam. That alone gives Israel a massive advantage over its neighbors, whom it has no real need to get along with or pursue peace because Uncle Sam will be behind Israel.
It performs better than most of our own states and has no need of sharia. The source of its success is its capitalist system with welfare addendums and its dedication to voting for leaders (Except the judges reportedly. The judges have some power.) What US state with comparable resources has accomplished as much? How is Vermont doing? Now go further and compare it to any neighboring country even as far as 3 countries away from itself? Israel very profitable both for itself and surrounding countries, has a successful tax cycle, exports products, imports products and creates new tech. It hasn't even tapped its oil resources under the dead sea. Without sharia. So it goes well for Israel despite not having sharia.
And it's am embarassment? How? Why? Who is embarrassed? Not faceless numbers, actual names. Yes, we know Israel has enemies, but the Palestinians they brought that hatred upon themselves by stealing their home and continuing to do so while economically crippling Gaza/West Bank in the process.
I think Islam isn't evil, but its a failure. As a political force its attempt to purge Jews is part of its scramble for some claim of validity and evidenced by the fact that the Jews have been chased out of the Arab countries. The UN had the bright idea (Ok it was really USA and Britain mostly) to put a nation of Jews in the middle of the Arab countries. Excellent thinking of course, if you want to completely ruin everyone's century. I can't claim I would have done better.
And, yes, they take the numbers given by the Gaza Health Ministry. Historically those numbers have been accurate and independently verified, and it's no different with Israel's genocide against Gaza.
My understanding is that the correct name for this has always been the Hamas Ministry of Health, or are you referring to a different entity? Is this the organ which has such good accounting?
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
The UN had the bright idea (Ok it was really USA and Britain mostly) to put a nation of Jews in the middle of the Arab countries
Um, the UN had nothing to do with that. The Zionists declared the state of Israel in 1948 and the UN just voted to recognize it. The partition plan in 1947 was just a non-binding resolution. The UN doesn't have the authority to found states. That's not what it's for or how it works.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Islam is synonymous with 'Subjugation'. If you are suggesting that I loathe the idea of being subjugated I cannot say for sure. I've never tried it that way.
It's not. No more than Christianity is. Actually probably less so because the Quran dictates you cannot mandate, obligate or require people to convert, explaining there shall be no compulsion of conversation because such convetions are not sincere, adding Allah calls to people when he calls to them.
It performs better than most of our own states and has no need of sharia. The source of its success is its capitalist system with welfare addendums and its dedication to voting for leaders (Except the judges reportedly. The judges have some power.)
It has its own ethnoreligious laws, however, such as the Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People Law.
What US state with comparable resources has accomplished as much? How is Vermont doing?
California is the world's 5th largest economy.
Now go further and compare it to any neighboring country even as far as 3 countries away from itself? Israel very profitable both for itself and surrounding countries, has a successful tax cycle, exports products, imports products and creates new tech. It hasn't even tapped its oil resources under the dead sea. Without sharia. So it goes well for Israel despite not having sharia.
Saudi Arabia is very wealthy despite Morality Police and Wahabi being the official sect of Islam.
I think Islam isn't evil, but its a failure.
That is Islamophobia. A failure? That reminds me of the thread trying to insist Jesus was a failure.
I think Islam isn't evil, but its a failure. As a political force its attempt to purge Jews is part of its scramble for some claim of validity and evidenced by the fact that the Jews have been chased out of the Arab countries.
By that measurement Christianity is also a dismall failure due to prejudiced attitudes, pogroms, and forcing them out if one European nation after another.
The UN had the bright idea (Ok it was really USA and Britain mostly) to put a nation of Jews in the middle of the Arab countries. Excellent thinking of course, if you want to completely ruin everyone's century. I can't claim I would have done better.
It actually started when some Zionist declared Palestine is their home and they're taking it. USA and England helped make it happen, with the UN drawing up the original boarders (boarders that still to this day Israel does not honor, and their occupation of the West Bank has gotten worse).
My understanding is that the correct name for this has always been the Hamas Ministry of Health, or are you referring to a different entity? Is this the organ which has such good accounting?
That's just your sources misleading you.
 

Brickjectivity

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's not. No more than Christianity is. Actually probably less so because the Quran dictates you cannot mandate, obligate or require people to convert, explaining there shall be no compulsion of conversation because such convetions are not sincere, adding Allah calls to people when he calls to them.
This link has a map showing the countries surrounding Israel execute blasphemers.
"https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/understanding-sharia-intersection-islam-and-law" There is no compulsion. You might be executed, but that isn't the same thing. No one puts you onto a prayer mat.
It has its own ethnoreligious laws, however, such as the Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People Law.
It succeeds without sharia, while countries around it ought to theoretically be doing better because of sharia. This undermines the credibility of the governments, because sharia is like the will of God. If they aren't doing well then it means they are somehow not in atunement with God's will, according to what I read about the Quran and sharia.
California is the world's 5th largest economy.
Cali.
Saudi Arabia is very wealthy despite Morality Police and Wahabi being the official sect of Islam.
That's good.
That is Islamophobia. A failure? That reminds me of the thread trying to insist Jesus was a failure.
Its a judgment of a political system not of a race.
By that measurement Christianity is also a dismall failure due to prejudiced attitudes, pogroms, and forcing them out if one European nation after another.
Its not a political failure, because it doesn't have a political system built into it. It survives under any political system that will allow it.
It actually started when some Zionist declared Palestine is their home and they're taking it. USA and England helped make it happen, with the UN drawing up the original boarders (boarders that still to this day Israel does not honor, and their occupation of the West Bank has gotten worse).
This is something I read and not something I can directly support: The 1967 6-day war spooked the Israelis so bad. They were attacked by multiple armies at once but had superior armaments due to US support, but they somehow believed it was a miraculous victory. I read that was a turning point, and from then on the secular country became increasingly fanatical. They started to believe that maybe Israel wasn't merely just another country but actually might be miraculously founded by God. So I think that there came to be a large group, today, who really would feel that there was some kind of supernatural claim to land.
That's just your sources misleading you.
Is this one of my sources? "https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/02/5-things-to-know-about-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry/"
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Its a judgment of a political system not of a race.
Islam isn't a race.
This link has a map showing the countries surrounding Israel execute blasphemers.
"https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/understanding-sharia-intersection-islam-and-law" There is no compulsion. You might be executed, but that isn't the same thing. No one puts you onto a prayer mat.
Christianity and Judaism have also done this. It's as common to the Abrahamic religions as killing apostates.
It succeeds without sharia, while countries around it ought to theoretically be doing better because of sharia. This undermines the credibility of the governments, because sharia is like the will of God. If they aren't doing well then it means they are somehow not in atunement with God's will, according to what I read about the Quran and sharia.
Where does this come from? What is this claims intended point? This seems to me to be a part of the traditional pissing contest among the Abrahamics, especially between the Christians and the Muslims.
And, again, Christianity has long accepted certain signs and omens can indicate someone is favored by Jehovah. Personally I believe our defining success as making a lot of money and idolizing the wealthy is a hang over from the times when a bountiful harvest and all your kids surviving childhood was even better than a new McClaren and surely meant Jehovah had blessed your family and you were bound for Heaven.
That's good.
It's another problem for your religious-based claims regarding how Israel's Muslim neighbors are doing. Saudi Arabia is massively wealthy and holds a considerable amount of power. And it has this despite their official sect of Islam being one that is fringe, radical and extremely conservative.
Its not a political failure, because it doesn't have a political system built into it. It survives under any political system that will allow it.
That's a double standard. These were political failures just as much as when they happen under Islam. It used to be the Christian world, much like Pagan Europe, did not separate State and Church and had the two so firmly welded together it was nearly literally impossible for them to even think of such a thing.
This is something I read and not something I can directly support: The 1967 6-day war spooked the Israelis so bad. They were attacked by multiple armies at once but had superior armaments due to US support, but they somehow believed it was a miraculous victory. I read that was a turning point, and from then on the secular country became increasingly fanatical. They started to believe that maybe Israel wasn't merely just another country but actually might be miraculously founded by God. So I think that there came to be a large group, today, who really would feel that there was some kind of supernatural claim to land.
True, but it's also tied to the Zionism that said and keeps saying "mine."
Perhaps not as that too says Gaza Health Ministry.
Or perhaps it is as it attempts to cast doubt on something that has been independently verified to be accurate. The White House doubts the numbers? Biden is firmly pro-Israel/anti-Gaza regarding this matter. But those few brave journalists actually facing the dangers are putting out similar numbers. Even in normal times journalists and international groups have found the numbers they report to be accurate.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
"some" ... "many"

That's very specific.

It's still a matter of fact that the majority of Israelis are from the MENA region.
Just what it is.
Irrelevant to what I said.

Well you see the Americans have the excuse of distance to the subject.
The closer you are the less excuse you have.

So what's your excuse to try and make it about skin colour?
Because it often is. Stop stooping to this level. You obviously know it can be. Do you seriously want to claim that there isn't a racialized element to Islamophobia? You seriously want to say "eh, these people all look basically the same colour to me, so how can there possibly be racially-motivated animus between one group and another?"

 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I’m asking what’s the point of opposing civilian deaths without realising that Hamas could prevent it by not putting them in danger in the first place.
This is still an incredibly dumb argument. Of course I realise that less civilians would die if Hamas didn't put them in danger. That's obvious. In what way does that mean that there's no point in opposing war crimes?

Right. So, that's the point. Committing war crimes is bad.

The specifics are that urban warfare is the most difficult to fight,Hamas have played this game for so long,using schools and hospitals,any commander attacking such an area would calculate casualties civilian or military,Hamas as we know put their people in harms way on purpose.

The IDF also issued warnings of where they were going to attack,so again Hamas deliberately put civilians in harms way by not allowing them to move or protecting them.
Again, none of this excuses actual war crimes. Explain to me why war crimes are specifically necessary to fight Hamas.

Widely reported doesn’t make it true,
Well, gee, I guess you shouldn't care, then.

It's hardly surprising that the only response you have to widely reported war crimes is "eh, maybe they didn't happen". That's it. That's literally the only argument you can make.

So, let's meet you at your level: let's imagine an entirely hypothetical scenario where all of these very widely-reported and verified events definitely totally happened. Would they be justified or not?

there are many more reported crimes by Hamas.
Why do you keep going back to this well if you believe war crimes don't justify further war crimes?

Hamas really mean “from the river to the sea” and so do the PLJ,Palestinian Islamic jihad who wilfully put their people in harms way,to protect their people,which is the duty of the government of Gaza,Hamas could have not sent people into Israel,killed a thousand people in the most horrific ways and compounded that with killing hostages in a most discusting way,they made choices and their people are suffering for it.
How does any of these things being true justify FURTHER WAR CRIMES.

I am tired of going around in circles. We already agree Hamas are bad, and commit war crimes, and put civilians in danger. The question is whether or not this justifies Israel's specific actions in response which amount to multiple credible cases of war crimes, and a current ongoing investigation by the international court into whether or not Israel is engaging in genocide.

Stop going on about Hamas. We all agree they're bad. It doesn't justify what Israel is currently doing.

My take is that Israel after 6 wars and infitadas want an end to it this time,
Because, as we all know, Israeli government's fifty-plus years of illegal annexation, war crimes and murders did a really good job of ensuring peace for Israeli and Palestinian civilians, yeah? Has it perhaps entered your brain that, has Israel not continually engaged in direct agitation, annexation and oppression, they needn't have been up against Hamas to begin with? Sort of renders your whole "If Hamas just did the right thing" argument a bit hypocritical. You believe Israel should get away with decades of oppression and war crimes, while the war crimes of Hamas deserve to be met with further war crimes.

Israel are not blameless
Then blame them. Start with the war crimes they're committing.

but whilst Hamas are functionan there will never be peace because they don’t want peace,ever,just the eradication of Israel.
Does that justify war crimes against civilians, yes or no?
 
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