Why I think there is one right religion

[England my lionheart]

Okay man sorry now I got back to the comment you wrote by mistake to ambiguous guy and saw the original question.


Anyways I think that Islam and Quraan would answer all the questions you need an answer to, "logically" and not by faith only.

It was my mistake not yours,i have read a lot of the Qur'an,its not unique in not being able to answer my questions,its not even unique in being a proselytising religion,it is imo a faith alone.

 

[cocokorina]

Can you emphasize on this a little, What did you mean by sexist religion? and what are the verses?

why are men in charge of women? women are not children. why must women obey their husbands?

 

[Sabour]

It was my mistake not yours,i have read a lot of the Qur'an,its not unique in not being able to answer my questions,its not even unique in being a proselytising religion,it is imo a faith alone.

Well if you like ask me the questions. I will answer and quote the verses.

All the answers I gave to questions were based on the Quraan and sometimes hadith.

 

[England my lionheart]

Well if you like ask me the questions. I will answer and quote the verses.

All the answers I gave to questions were based on the Quraan and sometimes hadith.

I find this interesting,the Qur'an has all the answers to all questions but for the majority of the followers of Islam it is'nt enough.

 

[Sabour]

why are men in charge of women? women are not children. why must women obey their husbands?

Please tell me the verses so that I can answer you. If you're talking about the verse 4:34 than I explained it here.. NO ? http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-does-quran-promote-peaceful-values-i-23.html

 

[Sabour]

I find this interesting,the Qur'an has all the answers to all questions but for the majority of the followers of Islam it is'nt enough.

What do you mean by it isn't enough ?

Ever since I've became a practicing Muslim everything began to go in the right way for me. Even in the hardest situations. I found all answers for my questions and I became more responsible, tolerant, accepting of others and more patient and kind to others.

 

[cocokorina]

Please tell me the verses so that I can answer you. If you're talking about the verse 4:34 than I explained it here.. NO ? http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...-does-quran-promote-peaceful-values-i-23.html

you explained the 'beating' part but you didn't explain WHY men are incharge of women? how is that not sexist? how can the Holy book sent by Allah be sexist like that?

 

[Sabour]

you explained the 'beating' part but you didn't explain WHY men are incharge of women? how is that not sexist? how can the Holy book sent by Allah be sexist like that?

Regarding that verse we were talking about 4:34

I said, so men are in charge of what? Of what Allah has given. It doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want like hitting her and make her do whatever you want because you will clearly see that women are honored in Islam.

Second they are also in charge financially which means they have to fully cover all house expenditures.


What are the other verses you are referring to?

 

[cocokorina]

Regarding that verse we were talking about 4:34

I said, so men are in charge of what? Of what Allah has given. It doesn't mean that you can do whatever you want like hitting her and make her do whatever you want because you will clearly see that women are honored in Islam.

Second they are also in charge financially which means they have to fully cover all house expenditures.


What are the other verses you are referring to?

If men are Incharge of women financially, does that mean women must be obedient? You realize women can also earn like men and donot need to be dependent on them right? But in an Islamic setup, women are supposed to obey their husband and if he doesn't wNt her to leave the house, she cannot. Why is that so?

 

[Sabour]

If men are Incharge of women financially, does that mean women must be obedient? You realize women can also earn like men and donot need to be dependent on them right? But in an Islamic setup, women are supposed to obey their husband and if he doesn't wNt her to leave the house, she cannot. Why is that so?

In the same verse, women are devoutly obedient.

Obedient to the Word of God. Otherwise you will be worshiping the husband and not God. Islam is against that isn't it ?

You realize women can also earn like men and donot need to be dependent on them right?

Yes. However financial aspects are a duty on the man, it is not a must. So if you exempt him from it he will be more than happy.

if he doesn't wNt her to leave the house, she cannot.

 

[England my lionheart]

What do you mean by it isn't enough ?

Ever since I've became a practicing Muslim everything began to go in the right way for me. Even in the hardest situations. I found all answers for my questions and I became more responsible, tolerant, accepting of others and more patient and kind to others.

I mean the Qur'an isn't enough without the sunnah and hadith,here it gets complicated with some regarding some hadith as authentic whilst others don't which has caused division in Islam,this is apparent in much of the world today.

 

[cocokorina]

In the same verse, women are devoutly obedient.

Obedient to the Word of God. Otherwise you will be worshiping the husband and not God. Islam is against that isn't it ?

women are supposed to be obedient to their husbands, as long as he's not commanding her to do anything unislamic or sinful. is that not true? if the husband does not his wife to leave the house, then she cannot. she must also take permission from her husband when she wants to leave the home. is this true or not?

Yes. However financial aspects are a duty on the man, it is not a must. So if you exempt him from it he will be more than happy.

they are duties of a man, but if the wife wants to be financially independent, she must have her husband's permission or else it's a sin. if the husband does not want her to work, an obediant wife must obey him, or it's a sin.
women were far better off before islam came into arabia. women used to be financially successful. islam however made them dependent on men.

 

[Sabour]

I mean the Qur'an isn't enough without the sunnah and hadith,here it gets complicated with some regarding some hadith as authentic whilst others don't which has caused division in Islam,this is apparent in much of the world today.

Let us look at the Quraan, it implies in different places that we must follow the teaching of the prophet. An example is:

33:21 There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.

Besides, for example, it is mentioned you should establish prayer in Islam. But how? when ? where?

There are different rating of hadith. Like Hasan, Sahih, Daaif. This is to show how many how much authentic the Hadith is.

For instance there is Sahih Al boukhari. It is the most authentic book of hadith for the way it is conducted.

If you watch this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKw-zx9OKNs

If you don't have time to watch it as a whole, watch from minute 13 because I think this would answer your question.

 

[Sabour]

women are supposed to be obedient to their husbands, as long as he's not commanding her to do anything unislamic or sinful. is that not true?
If the husband does not his wife to leave the house, then she cannot. she must also take permission from her husband when she wants to leave the home. is this true or not?

Obedient to husband, is conditioned to that the husband is obedient to God. If anything he tells you is not islamic, you don't have to follow. If you followed that this is not islamic.

It is not about authority!

they are duties of a man, but if the wife wants to be financially independent, she must have her husband's permission or else it's a sin.

I think I didn't follow. For example if I told my elder son to be responsible for his younger brother financially and the younger brother said no I am fine I can do it on my own. Is the young brother wrong in doing that?

I will be more than happy to find a wife who would ask me not to spend my money

if the husband does not want her to work, an obediant wife must obey him, or it's a sin.

This depends on the nature of work and the reasons. It is being obedient to Allah and not the husband.

Besides, such an issue can always be discussed before marriage. Even between non muslims.

I prefer if my wife won't work. But I have to me realistic and evaluate the reasons.

women were far better off before islam came into arabia. women used to be financially successful. islam however made them dependent on men.

Actually it is the exact opposite.

women were treated like slaves or property
Women were used for one purpose, and then discarded. They had no independence, could not own property and were not allowed to inherit. In times of war, women were treated as part of the loot. Simply put, their plight was unspeakable.

Furthermore, the birth of a daughter in a family was not an occasion for rejoicing, but was regarded with humiliation. The practice of killing female children was rampant.

 

[Ingledsva]

Obedient to husband, is conditioned to that the husband is obedient to God. If anything he tells you is not islamic, you don't have to follow. If you followed that this is not islamic.

It is not about authority!





I think I didn't follow. For example if I told my elder son to be responsible for his younger brother financially and the younger brother said no I am fine I can do it on my own. Is the young brother wrong in doing that?

I will be more than happy to find a wife who would ask me not to spend my money


This depends on the nature of work and the reasons. It is being obedient to Allah and not the husband.

Besides, such an issue can always be discussed before marriage. Even between non muslims.

I prefer if my wife won't work. But I have to me realistic and evaluate the reasons.



Actually it is the exact opposite.

women were treated like slaves or property
Women were used for one purpose, and then discarded. They had no independence, could not own property and were not allowed to inherit. In times of war, women were treated as part of the loot. Simply put, their plight was unspeakable.

Furthermore, the birth of a daughter in a family was not an occasion for rejoicing, but was regarded with humiliation. The practice of killing female children was rampant.

You are being disingenuous!


In some Muslim countries -


women cannot work without the husbands permission.

women cannot drive cars (wouldn't want them to be able to escape)

Women cannot order work, or large objects - like furniture - without permission.


Males own the children.


Islam forbids Muslim women from marrying a non-Muslim.


We see what is happening in some Muslim countries that are trying to educate girls.


Some Islamic countries, such as Morocco (Penal Code Article 475), allow rapists to avoid prosecution if they marry their victim.


Women cannot leave the country - and usually even the area - and sometimes even the house - without a male's permission.


Sounds like Muslims are trying to keep their women from running away from patriarchal Muslim countries!



*

 

[Sabour]

You are being disingenuous!


In some Muslim countries -


women cannot work without the husbands permission.

women cannot drive cars (wouldn't want them to be able to escape)

Women cannot order work, or large objects - like furniture - without permission.


Males own the children.

Regardless if that was true or not, which I doubt, or even is in minor countries. I am discussing Islam and not what muslims do

Islam forbids Muslim women from marrying a non-Muslim.

Yep, this is for her protection.

The first thing a husband would do when they have a "minor" disagreement, he would slaughter the Prophet peace be upon him.

While If a muslim man married non muslim woman, he won't do that because he believes in her prophet. If he does slaughter him, he is not a muslim anymore.

We see what is happening in some Muslim countries that are trying to educate girls.


Some Islamic countries, such as Morocco (Penal Code Article 475), allow rapists to avoid prosecution if they marry their victim.


Women cannot leave the country - and usually even the area - and sometimes even the house - without a male's permission.


Sounds like Muslims are trying to keep their women from running away from patriarchal Muslim countries!

Again I am discussing Islam and not Muslims.

If Muslims understood Islam correctly, we wouldn't have been in this situation we are in today.

 

[cocokorina]

Obedient to husband, is conditioned to that the husband is obedient to God. If anything he tells you is not islamic, you don't have to follow. If you followed that this is not islamic.

please explain why an ungrateful wife deserves Hell?

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”

how stupid does it sound?

Actually it is the exact opposite.
women were treated like slaves or property
Women were used for one purpose, and then discarded. They had no independence, could not own property and were not allowed to inherit. In times of war, women were treated as part of the loot. Simply put, their plight was unspeakable.

What a bunch of lies!
if women were so poorly treated and had no independence, can you please explain Why khadija, Mohammads first wife, before islam or even meeting mohammad, was a very successful business woman? even mohammad worked for her and thats how they met! please explain why khadija was a businesswoman before islam if women had no value or independence?

Furthermore, the birth of a daughter in a family was not an occasion for rejoicing, but was regarded with humiliation. The practice of killing female children was rampant.

not everyone killed their daughters. good and bad people existed in every society. even today, many muslims kill their daughters or get very sad at the birth of their daughter. i come from pakistan, where plenty of muslims abandon their newborn daughters at orphanage. so this shows good and bad people exist everywhere. some bad people existed before islam, but not all were bad. if everyone or even majority was killing their daughters, there would have been very few women back then and mohammad wouldn't have been able to have 12 wives!

 

[Sabour]

please explain why an ungrateful wife deserves Hell?

The term "ungrateful" what does it mean?

Let us say that a person say to you bad words. If you don't like him, do we say you are ungrateful ? No ! ungrateful of what?

If a person is treating you as it should be and is making to you all good. And you say you didn't do me any good? In that case you are ungrateful.

So is it Okay to be ungrateful?

The hadith is about focusing how bad the act is and tell women than when men are good to you, don't throw all that away because of word and say you didn't do anything good.

This is not just an expression said! Consequences are based on that sentence. It is not like you say to your husband you are not good to me in a moment of madness and this makes you going to hell.

Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, ‘I have never received any good from you.”

how stupid does it sound?
What a bunch of lies!
if women were so poorly treated and had no independence, can you please explain Why khadija, Mohammads first wife, before islam or even meeting mohammad, was a very successful business woman? even mohammad worked for her and thats how they met! please explain why khadija was a businesswoman before islam if women had no value or independence?

So you are taking one case and generalizing ?

not everyone killed their daughters. good and bad people existed in every society. even today, many muslims kill their daughters or get very sad at the birth of their daughter. i come from pakistan, where plenty of muslims abandon their newborn daughters at orphanage. so this shows good and bad people exist everywhere. some bad people existed before islam, but not all were bad. if everyone or even majority was killing their daughters, there would have been very few women back then and mohammad wouldn't have been able to have 12 wives!

What the pakistanis are doing is not islamic. Islam forbids that CLEARLY.

Let me answer to what you are hinting at.

Who would marry a woman that the prophet divorced ?

 

[cocokorina]

The term "ungrateful" what does it mean?
Let us say that a person say to you bad words. If you don't like him, do we say you are ungrateful ? No ! ungrateful of what?
If a person is treating you as it should be and is making to you all good. And you say you didn't do me any good? In that case you are ungrateful.
So is it Okay to be ungrateful?

if a wife is ungrateful to her husband, she can go to Hell for it. thats a very sexist hadith.

So you are taking one case and generalizing ?

but it's okay for you to generalize all arabs before islam as being bad to women? its okay for you to generalize that before islam most women were treated badly?

What the pakistanis are doing is not islamic. Islam forbids that CLEARLY.
Let me answer to what you are hinting at.
Who would marry a woman that the prophet divorced ?

i never said islam allows killing of daughters. i simply stated, bad people will do bad things. before islam, some people were bad but many were good as well. its a complete myth that arabs were treating women badly before islam. it's not like before mohammad, everyone was killing their daughter. women were treated very well and were quite successful and independent. islam took away their independence. the best example is khadija herself who empolyed mohammad! there was a reason why mohammad couldn't marry other women while khadija was alive, as she was the breadwinner.

 

[Sabour]

if a wife is ungrateful to her husband, she can go to Hell for it. thats a very sexist hadith.

The hadith doesn't clearly say if that is the main reason.

Besides, continue the hadith to see what "ungrateful" means. If someone is good to you and all of a sudden you want to divorce him, you say he is not good, he never was and never will be. This is what scholars explained the hadith.

Does anyone plan to do that?

but it's okay for you to generalize all arabs before islam as being bad to women? its okay for you to generalize that before islam most women were treated badly?

I am not taking one case, it is a well known history shared by Arabs before Islam. There are poems written wrong times ago which who the existence of such treatment. It is said that Omar Ibn lkhattab himself buried his daughter alive.

i never said islam allows killing of daughters. i simply stated, bad people will do bad things. before islam, some people were bad but many were good as well. its a complete myth that arabs were treating women badly before islam. it's not like before mohammad, everyone was killing their daughter. women were treated very well and were quite successful and independent. islam took away their independence. the best example is khadija herself who empolyed mohammad! there was a reason why mohammad couldn't marry other women while khadija was alive, as she was the breadwinner.

:no::no::no:

You are taking one case and generalizing. I think discussing history will get us nowhere.