Wolves in sheep's clothings when the light inside is darkness.

[Evie]

Agreed.

And that is among the many ways that religion harms us. Sure, some people would still be nasty without religion, but when they believe and claim that they have the imprimatur of a good god, and can convince others of that as well, they feel self-righteous, and they manufacture the consent of those that they can convince that a god speaks through them.

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

Religion and God are not the same thing.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Who are you addressing?

It is in the first quote of my post????

 

[Evie]

Agreed.

And that is among the many ways that religion harms us. Sure, some people would still be nasty without religion, but when they believe and claim that they have the imprimatur of a good god, and can convince others of that as well, they feel self-righteous, and they manufacture the consent of those that they can convince that a god speaks through them.

• "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. For good people to do evil things, it takes religion." - Nobelist Steven Weinberg

 

[Evie]

Religion and God are not the same thing.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Let us challenge your thought trait for one moment.

If God is good and Satan Evil.
Then why isn't Satan responsible for the Evil?

Going on the revelation: " Satan is the Father of all lies" Why do you think mankind believe so many different things and are often at loggerheads with each other?

Look at Satan the serpent for a moment.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


The lie was what mislead Eve to disobey God. She had the choice to believe God who had been good to her and provided for her or a serpent who only had to lie.
What do you believe was the Serpents intent? Did what he tell her bring her harm or good?

We see the Serpent/Satan/Devil has never been on the side of good or wanted good for man.

So I can ask the question based on knowledge that good and evil cannot come from the same root cause. Just as day and night cannot exist together but each must reign separately one after the other.

So now I have accounted for what I have previously said using the basis for those things. Now account for circular reasoning and why Satan would not be a cause.

With omnipotence and omniscience comes omni-responsibility.

The believer will not permit himself to think like that, so he just shuffles the blame over to man and Satan, and any cognitive dissonance is squelched. Then you isolate your god further with the unsupported claim "that good and evil cannot come from the same root cause," one actually contradicted by experience.

The unbeliever has no need to do that, and so doesn't.

How should we judge a god that creates a malefic demon like Satan? What should we think about this god not only for not destroying this source of concentrated malice, but for actually tossing it onto our planet? What would you think of an extraterrestrial that created a demon and launched it onto your planet?

 

[Evie]

With omnipotence and omniscience comes omni-responsibility.

The believer will not permit himself to think like that, so he just shuffles the blame over to man and Satan, and any cognitive dissonance is squelched. Then you isolate your god further with the unsupported claim "that good and evil cannot come from the same root cause," one actually contradicted by experience.

The unbeliever has no need to do that, and so doesn't.

How should we judge a god that creates a malefic demon like Satan? What should we think about this god not only for not destroying this source of concentrated malice, but for actually tossing it onto our planet? What would you think of an extraterrestrial that created a demon and launched it onto your planet?

I wouldn't like it. Not one bit.

 

[pearl]

There is much talk these days of a second coming. And I have to wonder if such an event will be to confirm existing faith traditions or to correct our understanding of God. I'm betting on the latter and gnashing of teeth all around

In Fyodor Dostoyevsky's novel 'The Brothers Karamazov', there is a scene with the Grand Inquisitor during the Inquisition. 'He (Christ) came softly, unobserved, yet, strange to say, everyone recognized him, are irresistibly drawn to him, he moves silently in their midst with a gentile smile and great compassion. An old man in the crowd, blind from birth, cries out 'O lord, heal me and I shall see thee" and as it were the scales fall from his eyes. "it is He, it is He."
However, the Grand Inquisitor asks, "Why hast Thou come now to hinder us."

 

[pearl]

Religion and God are not the same thing.

Exactly, religion and faith are not the same thing. Faith is God's self gift, religion is a manmade expression of faith.

 

[savagewind]

I have heard him speak. When my youngest sister was 12 years old it was two days before her birthday,
In the previous 5 years two of my sisters lost babies.
The first child was a few month old. I had visited and her and it was by all accounts a great day. When I was leaving I heard the the Lord say to me. " Go back and kiss the baby you will never see her again." I went back automatically and kissed the baby goodbye and I never saw the baby again she died two weeks later. Then two years later I had been at a friends wedding.
I arrived home perfectly happy but knew all was not right. I waited for the knock on the door and it was my sister her child had died.

It would be almost 3 years later when I was visiting my parents home. Our youngest sister had been out with friends. I was sat in the lounge when a voice (not from God) something that
chilled your soul,spoke and said, " So far I have only taken the younger relatives what about when I take someone closer like your sister or" I got up and walked away from that voice then the telephone rang at the same moment. My sister had collapsed it took hours for a brain haemorrhage to be diagnosed. A long operation and then she passed several days later.

Do I know there is a Satan? Yes I do! You have to hope you never go through that, you have to hope you never become aware of such a person in your own reality.My life changed that
day and I was so shocked to my core of existence. But God came in and he shielded me. For years after, Satan could not get to me God healed me and reassured me of his loving
presence.I needed Gods healing presence just hearing him speak. So we may mock but you can probably understand why when I speak I am sure of God and the fact the devil also existed.

I wondered why I had knew about the other two deaths before they happened. But had I not been prepared by knowing when it comes from God, I am not sure I could have survived
the attack from Satan. Knowing Gods loving and gentle guiding hand when a loved one dies actually helped me when it came to the latter when it was not God.
God wants what is good for everyone. Satan just wants to hurt people.

I think you are saying it was satan who told you the child would die and that his saying so is your proof that satan exists.

 

[EtuMalku]

God said it, I believe it, and that settles it. The Bible is all humanity has to expose any untruths people try to make others believe. Without the Written Word and the power of the Holy Spirit to move the Hand of God to open our eyes to the truth of the scriptures, we would have remained lost.

I feel sorry for you

 

[QuestioningMind]

Men and women still have children today, bringing them into the world and look around you, is it really a fit place to bring children into?
So is life measured by the evil that will exist or the good things we can experience as individuals in life?
We don't see the future and have no impact on what might happen and we still create children. We do that not able to change the outcome or make something better.
An all knowing and powerful God is best equipped to make the decisions regarding the final outcome and worth of creating something knowing what it will face.

When you see the Ocean and beautiful sunsets and know you can see far more splendid things for eternity. Would you have chosen not be have been created?
God is not responsible for evil. Free will and the evil in a person are .



Christians are doing things in the world you can only dream about. Human thought and error is restricted to humans.
As for the human failings with our own children you cannot compare that to God. He provides you have to accept. He tells you and your children should be aware of stranger
danger. As I said evil is our choice as it was Satan's. Robots cannot respond they can only be programmed.

"Men and women still have children today, bringing them into the world and look around you, is it really a fit place to bring children into?"

It is absolutely a 'fit place' to bring children into. There's in no time in human history when it was safer to be a child than it is today. Never before has society been more child focused than it is today. A mere 100 years ago children as young as 5 years old were being worked for 12 hours a day in sweat shops in this nation. A mere 100 years ago a significant portion of children didn't make it past there third year because of rampant childhood diseases that have been eradicated. Today we have programs in early childhood development designed to enable children to reach their full potential. If you conclude that the world of today is not fit to bring children into then you'd have to conclude that there has never been a fit time to bring kids into the world.

"Christians are doing things in the world you can only dream about."
Such as?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I have heard him speak. When my youngest sister was 12 years old it was two days before her birthday,
In the previous 5 years two of my sisters lost babies.
The first child was a few month old. I had visited and her and it was by all accounts a great day. When I was leaving I heard the the Lord say to me. " Go back and kiss the baby you will never see her again." I went back automatically and kissed the baby goodbye and I never saw the baby again she died two weeks later. Then two years later I had been at a friends wedding.
I arrived home perfectly happy but knew all was not right. I waited for the knock on the door and it was my sister her child had died.

It would be almost 3 years later when I was visiting my parents home. Our youngest sister had been out with friends. I was sat in the lounge when a voice (not from God) something that
chilled your soul,spoke and said, " So far I have only taken the younger relatives what about when I take someone closer like your sister or" I got up and walked away from that voice then the telephone rang at the same moment. My sister had collapsed it took hours for a brain haemorrhage to be diagnosed. A long operation and then she passed several days later.

Do I know there is a Satan? Yes I do! You have to hope you never go through that, you have to hope you never become aware of such a person in your own reality.My life changed that
day and I was so shocked to my core of existence. But God came in and he shielded me. For years after, Satan could not get to me God healed me and reassured me of his loving
presence.I needed Gods healing presence just hearing him speak. So we may mock but you can probably understand why when I speak I am sure of God and the fact the devil also existed.

I wondered why I had knew about the other two deaths before they happened. But had I not been prepared by knowing when it comes from God, I am not sure I could have survived
the attack from Satan. Knowing Gods loving and gentle guiding hand when a loved one dies actually helped me when it came to the latter when it was not God.
God wants what is good for everyone. Satan just wants to hurt people.

Folks who hear voices in their heads that they attribute to outside forces generally need some sort of psychological counseling.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Lie, deception. Both basically the same thing.

The serpent lied but he did so to deceive Eve.
He lied about God saying they would die not being true.
Eve was deceived and his lie caused her to eat the fruit.
Deception is the result of a lie it leads a person to believe something that is false and to act on it.
Whereas the lie is what causes the deception to take place.
Greatest lie and greatest deception.

I think you are saying it was satan who told you the child would die and that his saying so is your proof that satan exists.

Which child?

You see the first two occasions it was God preparing myself.
The last was evil. Hours before the Paris incident I knew something was going to happen and people killed.
I knew the Country first, then the city. But I also knew nothing could prevent it happening.
Why it was revealed to me, I do not know. But the truth is God does reveal things to us before they happen.

I know the end and it is as God has planned.

 

[RESOLUTION]

"Men and women still have children today, bringing them into the world and look around you, is it really a fit place to bring children into?"

It is absolutely a 'fit place' to bring children into. There's in no time in human history when it was safer to be a child than it is today. Never before has society been more child focused than it is today. A mere 100 years ago children as young as 5 years old were being worked for 12 hours a day in sweat shops in this nation. A mere 100 years ago a significant portion of children didn't make it past there third year because of rampant childhood diseases that have been eradicated. Today we have programs in early childhood development designed to enable children to reach their full potential. If you conclude that the world of today is not fit to bring children into then you'd have to conclude that there has never been a fit time to bring kids into the world. ]/QUOTE]

Were they being exploited by internet gangs using them for porn or being murdered and raped by Paedophiles who are able to connect by internet? Children still dying of childhood diseases. It is a worse time now where guns readily available to shoot class mates or gun men to enter schools and kill children. Do you live in the same world?
What about the muslim groups of men in England who were grooming young teenage white girls and using and selling them for sex? The young girl on holiday taken from her bed in the night and never found. Children kidnapped and never seen again.
100 years ago given the lack of cars and other transport it would be difficult for harm to come to these children nowhere to run and hide but the internet and transport today has made it possible for children to be harmed.

"Christians are doing things in the world you can only dream about."
Such as?

Raising the dead. Healing the sick and the terminally ill. Would you need to ask if you actually looked into these things?

 

[RESOLUTION]

Folks who hear voices in their heads that they attribute to outside forces generally need some sort of psychological counseling.

People who suggest such things do so from ignorance.I suppose you have no religion then.
As if you did then you really are putting your own beliefs under a microscope where all religious leaders become mentally ill.
Abraham, Moses, Jesus Christ and anyone who has believed are all under that banner of psychological counselling.
In truth the fact is mans mind is too great and too many things happened for such a blanket statement to ever be correct or even acceptable.

In THE REALITY the things have happened. shouldn't a questioning mind be more interested in the actual reality of the things
the voice said, happening. It was NOT voices but a single voice each time.

What it said, came true. I guess we have to look at all the facts and not what suits your trait of mind.

 

[QuestioningMind]

"Were they being exploited by internet gangs using them for porn or being murdered and raped by Paedophiles who are able to connect by internet? Children still dying of childhood diseases. It is a worse time now where guns readily available to shoot class mates or gun men to enter schools and kill children. Do you live in the same world?
What about the muslim groups of men in England who were grooming young teenage white girls and using and selling them for sex? The young girl on holiday taken from her bed in the night and never found. Children kidnapped and never seen again.
100 years ago given the lack of cars and other transport it would be difficult for harm to come to these children nowhere to run and hide but the internet and transport today has made it possible for children to be harmed."

Of course children are still being exploited today, but you're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the exploitation of children is WORSE today that it was just 100 years ago, when as I said 5 year olds were being put to work for 12 hour shift a day. Yes, there are HORRIBLE shootings taking place in schools today... gun violence is very real... that doesn't change the fact that TODAY the rate of violent crime in America is MUCH lower than it was just 30 years ago. Yes, children are exploited for sex, kidnapped, and murdered in the year 2017... but again, you're living in a world of delusion if you honestly believe that children were NOT sexually exploited, kidnapped, and killed 2000 years ago. Are there still childhood diseases? OF COURSE. But you're being ridiculous if you think that the number of children who die in infancy because of disease is GREATER today that it was a mere 50 years ago. In the year 1900 in the USA the average life expectancy for a male was 46.3 years. In 1998 the average life expectancy for a male was 73.8 years. The vast majority of the increase in life expectancy between now and then is the huge DECREASE in infant fatalities, due to the eradication of numerous childhood diseases and a better understanding of basic hygiene.

No one is claiming that the world is perfect today. The claim was that today life is far better and people are far MORE moral than they were 100 or 2000 years ago. Anyone who claims that the world is less moral today is refusing to face reality.

 

[Milton Platt]

Is that present day? So why bring it up? How long has slavery been abolished?
So no slavery in the religions today?

Wasn't the point. The question was whether religion was used as a screen or to justify evil. It was and still is used. I picked slavery because it is clearly stated in the Christian scriptures. It was used to support the ownership of other human beings for a very long time. Yes, we have fortunately figured out as a society that these things are wrong. That does not mean they did not happen. And although slavery is not practiced today by Christians, it is not because they changed the Bible. It is because they have learned to ignore the inhumane parts.

 

[Evie]

"Were they being exploited by internet gangs using them for porn or being murdered and raped by Paedophiles who are able to connect by internet? Children still dying of childhood diseases. It is a worse time now where guns readily available to shoot class mates or gun men to enter schools and kill children. Do you live in the same world?
What about the muslim groups of men in England who were grooming young teenage white girls and using and selling them for sex? The young girl on holiday taken from her bed in the night and never found. Children kidnapped and never seen again.
100 years ago given the lack of cars and other transport it would be difficult for harm to come to these children nowhere to run and hide but the internet and transport today has made it possible for children to be harmed."

Of course children are still being exploited today, but you're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the exploitation of children is WORSE today that it was just 100 years ago, when as I said 5 year olds were being put to work for 12 hour shift a day. Yes, there are HORRIBLE shootings taking place in schools today... gun violence is very real... that doesn't change the fact that TODAY the rate of violent crime in America is MUCH lower than it was just 30 years ago. Yes, children are exploited for sex, kidnapped, and murdered in the year 2017... but again, you're living in a world of delusion if you honestly believe that children were NOT sexually exploited, kidnapped, and killed 2000 years ago. Are there still childhood diseases? OF COURSE. But you're being ridiculous if you think that the number of children who die in infancy because of disease is GREATER today that it was a mere 50 years ago. In the year 1900 in the USA the average life expectancy for a male was 46.3 years. In 1998 the average life expectancy for a male was 73.8 years. The vast majority of the increase in life expectancy between now and then is the huge DECREASE in infant fatalities, due to the eradication of numerous childhood diseases and a better understanding of basic hygiene.

No one is claiming that the world is perfect today. The claim was that today life is far better and people are far MORE moral than they were 100 or 2000 years ago. Anyone who claims that the world is less moral today is refusing to face reality.

There are a great many more people on the earth today. Maybe that accounts for a greater number of people committing immoral and criminal acts than long ago.

 

[Evie]

Wasn't the point. The question was whether religion was used as a screen or to justify evil. It was and still is used. I picked slavery because it is clearly stated in the Christian scriptures. It was used to support the ownership of other human beings for a very long time. Yes, we have fortunately figured out as a society that these things are wrong. That does not mean they did not happen. And although slavery is not practiced today by Christians, it is not because they changed the Bible. It is because they have learned to ignore the inhumane parts.

I have to agree that religion is used to gratify desires that civilised people look upon as depraved and downright criminal behaviour. So all those with such desires will be drawn to religions which give them freedom to gratify such sick desire.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Are we talking about the USA or UK.

"Were they being exploited by internet gangs using them for porn or being murdered and raped by Paedophiles who are able to connect by internet? Children still dying of childhood diseases. It is a worse time now where guns readily available to shoot class mates or gun men to enter schools and kill children. Do you live in the same world?
What about the muslim groups of men in England who were grooming young teenage white girls and using and selling them for sex? The young girl on holiday taken from her bed in the night and never found. Children kidnapped and never seen again.
100 years ago given the lack of cars and other transport it would be difficult for harm to come to these children nowhere to run and hide but the internet and transport today has made it possible for children to be harmed."

Of course children are still being exploited today, but you're living in a fantasy world if you believe that the exploitation of children is WORSE today that it was just 100 years ago, when as I said 5 year olds were being put to work for 12 hour shift a day. Yes, there are HORRIBLE shootings taking place in schools today... gun violence is very real... that doesn't change the fact that TODAY the rate of violent crime in America is MUCH lower than it was just 30 years ago. Yes, children are exploited for sex, kidnapped, and murdered in the year 2017... but again, you're living in a world of delusion if you honestly believe that children were NOT sexually exploited, kidnapped, and killed 2000 years ago. Are there still childhood diseases? OF COURSE. But you're being ridiculous if you think that the number of children who die in infancy because of disease is GREATER today that it was a mere 50 years ago. In the year 1900 in the USA the average life expectancy for a male was 46.3 years. In 1998 the average life expectancy for a male was 73.8 years. The vast majority of the increase in life expectancy between now and then is the huge DECREASE in infant fatalities, due to the eradication of numerous childhood diseases and a better understanding of basic hygiene.

No one is claiming that the world is perfect today. The claim was that today life is far better and people are far MORE moral than they were 100 or 2000 years ago. Anyone who claims that the world is less moral today is refusing to face reality.