Would You Leave Christians to Go to Hell?

[savagewind]

Um, why?

Because if God talked to minds there would be two communications at the same time and it would be noisy. I think most people would not know that God is talking to them.

The ones I would deem most important or worth knowing.

Surely you can hear yourself. God should put into your mind the ones YOU deem most important. Thank you for talking to me.

I used an example suited to a super being.
It could literally just engrave the message word for word into our minds, or leave the message recorded.
Or both. Or something else.

I do not know that God didn't do that. How do YOU know?

I don't.

Are you saying the mess the world is in is God's fault? I don't.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Because if God talked to minds there would be two communications at the same time and it would be noisy. I think most people would not know that God is talking to them

It's god, it'll find a way to solve that problem... like making it's voice the only audible one.
People will group together and figure it out pretty fast, when everyone hears the exact same thing at the exact same time, there'll be discussion.

Surely you can hear yourself. God should put into your mind the ones YOU deem most important. Thank you for talking to me.

I was still following the hypothetical, "I" being "Jesus" or "God."

I do not know that God didn't do that. How do YOU know?

I don't, and I don't really care to.

Are you saying the mess the world is in is God's fault? I don't.

If god was clear from the start, with every being, there never would have been this type of confusion.
There wouldn't be multiple religions or warring denominations.
Depending on your version of god, hundreds of millions of people would have avoided death, or worse, at the hands of deranged believers.

Crappy ground work for such a magnificent being.

 

[savagewind]

It's god, it'll find a way to solve that problem... like making it's voice the only audible one.
People will group together and figure it out pretty fast, when everyone hears the exact same thing at the exact same time, there'll be discussion.

But I know some people would claim it is NOT from God. Aliens probably. So the talk would never get past WHO is doing it and for WHAT.

I was still following the hypothetical, "I" being "Jesus" or "God."

OK. I am sorry.

I don't, and I don't really care to.

I think this is a better opinion than the opinion of all those who would take charge.

If god was clear from the start, with every being, there never would have been this type of confusion.
There wouldn't be multiple religions or warring denominations.
Depending on your version of god, hundreds of millions of people would have avoided death, or worse, at the hands of deranged believers.

If God was clear from the start with everyone then everyone would not have reproduced as they have and there would never be too many people on the Earth. But they did. Of course, I do not wish to be wars' devil advocate but here goes. If all people knew God's will had obeyed God's will in most things, but not in everything and the Earth became full of people then the people would starve to death. Wouldn't they? Add all the people who have died in every war to all the people we have now. How many are there?

Crappy ground work for such a magnificent being.

I do not know how to respond to sarcasm.

 

[Deathbydefault]

If God was clear from the start with everyone then everyone would not have reproduced as they have and there would never be too many people on the Earth. But they did. Of course, I do not wish to be wars' devil advocate but here goes. If all people knew God's will had obeyed God's will in most things, but not in everything and the Earth became full of people then the people would starve to death. Wouldn't they? Add all the people who have died in every war to all the people we have now. How many are there?

Two sides to every coin, there'll obviously be a response to such a possibility and science will likely be the one to take it up.
Engineering sustainable resources, space colonization, or simply just birth rate regulations.
Humans do some really dumb stuff but we aren't all complete morons.

I do not know how to respond to sarcasm.

I was only being half sarcastic.

 

[savagewind]

Two sides to every coin, there'll obviously be a response to such a possibility and science will likely be the one to take it up.
Engineering sustainable resources, space colonization, or simply just birth rate regulations.
Humans do some really dumb stuff but we aren't all complete morons.

Do you know that many scientific breakthroughs were due to the war effort?

I was only being half sarcastic.

Half sarcasm is even harder.

 

[Deathbydefault]

Do you know that many scientific breakthroughs were due to the war effort?

Without war but with proper funding, we probably could have made more scientific breakthroughs.

Half sarcasm is even harder.

 

[savagewind]

Without war but with proper funding, we probably could have made more scientific breakthroughs.

Yes. Definitely true. But who would pay for it?

 

[Deathbydefault]

Yes. Definitely true. But who would pay for it?

Well, since this is in a different timeline where god is a fact, probably the people (by themselves or through the government).
I would assume there would be more acceptance of science the less it conflicts with supernatural beliefs.

 

[Scott C.]

The Bible Students who became the Jehovah's Witnesses did the same thing, but they do not believe the same as the LDS. Before that, the Catholic Church claimed it was the only way. So? Which one is it?

I believe it's the LDS Church. Everyone has to figure that out for themselves.

 

[Katzpur]

The Bible Students who became the Jehovah's Witnesses did the same thing, but they do not believe the same as the LDS. Before that, the Catholic Church claimed it was the only way. So? Which one is it?

The only one who was in a position to re-establish Jesus Christ's Church is Jesus Christ himself. There is this little matter of authority. As Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America, said, “[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new Apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking.” Jesus Christ's Church today has to be built on the same foundation it was originally built on -- prophets and apostles. Otherwise, you just have human beings doing their best, but not being directed by the true "Head of the Church" -- Jesus Christ.

 

[savagewind]

The only one who was in a position to re-establish Jesus Christ's Church is Jesus Christ himself. There is this little matter of authority. As Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America, said, “[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new Apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking.” Jesus Christ's Church today has to be built on the same foundation it was originally built on -- prophets and apostles. Otherwise, you just have human beings doing their best, but not being directed by the true "Head of the Church" -- Jesus Christ.

Thank you. I believe Jesus Christ is head of the church. Matthew 18:20 Matthew 28:20
I believe he is saying to live by HIS words. You live by more than his words. Psalms 146:3

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you. I believe Jesus Christ is head of the church. Matthew 18:20 Matthew 28:20
I believe he is saying to live by HIS words. You live by more than his words. Psalms 146:3

No, actually, I just believe He has said more than is contained within the pages of the Bible.

 

[savagewind]

No, actually, I just believe He has said more than is contained within the pages of the Bible.

Do you mean has said or is saying?

 

[Katzpur]

Do you mean has said or is saying?

Both. I have no logical reason to conclude that He wouldn't still be communicating with those who stand at the head of His Church. I believe He did so when His original Apostles were alive, and that's the only reason the Church He established managed to last as long as it did before changes started creeping in. Once the Apostles had all been martyred, there was no one left who held the authority to receive direction on behalf of the Church. I don't believe He'd have just left us with a book and said, "Here you go. Here are your instructions. I'm no longer going to be in touch." When Peter answered His question, "Who do you say that I am," with the words, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God," Jesus pointed out to him that this is something that he knew not by having just believed another human being, but by having had it revealed to him by God. I believe "the rock" He said He was going to build His Church on was the rock of revelation, and that He wold continue to direct His Church through this Heaven to Earth communication for as long as there were Apostles alive to receive His guidance.

 

[savagewind]

Both. I have no logical reason to conclude that He wouldn't still be communicating with those who stand at the head of His Church. .

Tell me why when two disciples of Jesus get together he can't talk to them? I ask because you say it is possible that he speaks to your elders. If you think he can't speak to you, why not?

 

[Katzpur]

Tell me why when two disciples of Jesus get together he can't talk to them? I ask because you say it is possible that he speaks to your elders. If you think he can't speak to you, why not?

Oh, I absolutely do believe that He can and does speak to each of us. As a matter of fact, that is one of the foundational tenets of Mormonism. But I believe He speaks to me with regards to things that pertain to me personally or to the individuals for whose welfare I am responsible (my children, for instance, when they were growing up). I believe that He speaks to Sunday School teachers, in helping them know how to present the material in their lessons so that it will resonate with everyone in the class and that it will meet the needs of all of the students in the class. I believe that He speaks to the bishop (i.e. pastor, I guess you'd say) of my ward (i.e. congregation) and to his two counselors, to help them be in tune with the needs of the ward members. I believe that He speaks to the President of the Church, his two counselors and to the men who comprise the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, to direct the Church as a whole. It is through this organizational structure that we see the Church as continuing to teach true doctrines and not fall into apostasy a second time.

In Ephesians 4:11-14, Paul says, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive..." We Mormons believe that without this same organizational structure, it would take no time at all before we were as "children, tossed to and fro [again], and carried about with every wind of doctrine." Going back to what I said about God speaking to my ward's bishop and guiding him in pastoring its members... Bishops generally serve in that capacity for a period of five years. It's a lay ministry, so a bishop continues to have a full-time secular job while he is a bishop. At the end of the five years, he is "released" from his calling and a new bishop called to take his place. At this point, God begins to direct the affairs of my ward through the new bishop, and no longer speaks to the former bishop regarding things pertaining to my ward as a whole. He would still continue to talk to him about his own life choices and about raising his family. And even when a person is serving as the bishop, God will never communicate with him regarding matters pertaining to the Church as a whole. Instead He would speak solely to the President of the Church.

Consider, for example, our Church's health code, "The Word of Wisdom." This is a directive we believe was given to Joseph Smith back in 1838. It prohibits alcohol, tobacco, tea and coffee, encourages a diet high i fruits, vegetables and whole grains and suggests that meat be eaten in moderation. Suppose this health code had never been given to Joseph Smith or to any of the Church's Presidents after him. Instead, suppose that this was something God wanted to reveal to us today. Rather than speak to each of the 15 million members of the Church individually or even to the tens of thousands of LDS bishops individually, we believe He would speak solely to the President of the Church. The President of the Church would meet with the other 14 men I mentioned and would tell them that God had revealed something He wanted the members of the Church to know. Together those men would fast and pray for confirmation and a confirming witness that God had, in fact, revealed this new directive to the President of the Church. Only after all of them had received a testimony to this effect, would the information be passed on to the members of the Church. The thing is, we are told that whenever anyone in a leadership position speaks to us, we are not to just blindly accept his words, but to ask God in prayer for confirmation of their truth. We believe that God will grant wisdom to anyone who goes to Him in prayer, having faith that his prayers will be answered. This is how we believe the Church functioned during the first century -- that God revealed His will to Peter (who had been chosen to direct the Church in Christ's absence) and the other Apostles. They would pass the information along to the bishops of the various congregations and those bishops would, in turn, pass it to the members of their own congregations. It's a pattern that, had it continued to have been followed after Christ's death, would have kept the Church strong and unified.

This is just my belief. I'm not sharing it with you for the purpose of changing your mind, but just to help you understand why we believe as we do.

 

[Scott C.]

Thank you for the answer, sorry to say these have also gone wrong, as i was referring to the whole ideology put forward by the Pharisees John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros), and so though somethings have been corrected, they're still also following the great deception.

I see. I read your post too fast and thought you were referring to false teaching of the Pharisees in general, which Jesus called out as such in the gospels. I consider John, Paul and Simon to have been called and ordained by Jesus to preach and they preached the truth. I believe that in the centuries following, a lot of teachings were distorted.

Which Biblical books, if any, do you consider to be the correct word of God, if you leave out the examples of John, Paul, and Simon?

 

[Jabar]

If i was Jesus peace be upon i would tell everyone about the truth which was Islam, and i am sure if i was Jesus i would have knew, knew it all.

 

[EtuMalku]

If i was Jesus peace be upon i would tell everyone about the truth which was Islam, and i am sure if i was Jesus i would have knew, knew it all.

Like Islam's beating of women and/or regulating them to second class humans?

Quran (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

Contemporary translations sometimes water down the word 'beat', but it is the same one used in verse 8:12 and clearly means 'to strike'.

Quran (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife (Tafsir).

**You can run but you cannot hide Jabar . . .

 

[wizanda]

Which Biblical books, if any, do you consider to be the correct word of God, if you leave out the examples of John, Paul, and Simon?

We can establish a character of Yeshua by the synoptic gospels, and then compare that with the Tanakh prophecy; this then verifies things like Revelations....James debates Paul, and Judas has some clever lines in it.

Yet it is all accounts by man (sometimes divinely inspired); books are not the word of God.