You can't have perfect knowledge through science

[I-Ching]

Which is?

By following the process of chanting the Names of God which is prescribed in many scriptures you can gain experience of God.

Even if there is/was a god, that wouldn't necessarily make anything mankind has said about him true. Anyone can declare themselves a "holy man" and anyone can write or speak whatever words they wish and claim they came from god. All of the religions make conflicting and contradictory claims, and they obviously can't all be true, so then what would you use to separate fact from fiction when it comes to god?

Different scriptures are given to different cultures according to time, place and circumstance. The essence of all scriptures is the same. That we should Love God and our neighbor.

 

[Madhuri]

If there is a god then he gave us the gift of reason, and it would be through that which we gain knowledge and understanding of reality. The scientific method is the application of reason. To denounce science would be to toss god's gift of reason right back in his face.

Although I do not disagree, I will comment that even human reasoning can be flawed. Especially when you have experience with various cultures, you learn that different people reason in different ways and this leads to different conclusions. Often times, our reasoning is dependent on the information we have, our level of intelligence, ability to interpret correctly, sharp perception and ability to be objective.

I think most people agree that reason is important to use. But generally, the religious person will see that reason leads to God, while the atheist sees that reason leads away from God.

 

[I-Ching]

If there is a god then he gave us the gift of reason, and it would be through that which we gain knowledge and understanding of reality. The scientific method is the application of reason. To denounce science would be to toss god's gift of reason right back in his face.

Science is the misuse of our reason.

We should use our reason to understand that we are in a suffering condition. How can we escape this condition? Who am I? Why am I here? This is the proper use of reason.

Not how can I get knowledge to better exploit the resources of this planet so that I can increase my sense gratification. So that I can eat better, sleep better, mate better, defend better. This is not reason. This is the mentality of a technologically advanced animal.

 

[Madhuri]

Science is the misuse of our reason.

We should use our reason to understand that we are in a suffering condition. How can we escape this condition? Who am I? Why am I here? This is the proper use of reason.

Not how can I get knowledge to better exploit the resources of this planet so that I can increase my sense gratification. So that I can eat better, sleep better, mate better, defend better. This is not reason. This is the mentality of a technologically advanced animal.

I have to say that I disagree. Science is the study of the laws of nature. I believe it is a legitimate avenue for understanding life and the universe. What you speak of is the motivations to study nature, and those motivations do not apply to all. There are people who are genuinely fascinated with the study. The gaining of intellectual knowledge is a legitimate yoga.

However, I agree that it is a long drawn out process. Bhakti is superior, imo, but no everyone is inclined to it. We're all unique, I-Ching. The curiosity for science is also God-given.

 

[Father Heathen]

By following the process of chanting the Names of God which is prescribed in many scriptures you can gain experience of God.

Oh, a magic incantation. Of course.

Different scriptures are given to different cultures according to time, place and circumstance. The essence of all scriptures is the same. That we should Love God and our neighbor.

But they're incompatible with one another, especially if you consider morality absolute and universal. Many of them advocated death, torture and subjugation. I find these things to be abhorrent, and if you think they're of god then I find your perception and portrayal of god to be abhorrent as well.

 

[I-Ching]

I have to say that I disagree. Science is the study of the laws of nature. I believe it is a legitimate avenue for understanding life and the universe. What you speak of is the motivations to study nature, and those motivations do not apply to all. There are people who are genuinely fascinated with the study. The gaining of intellectual knowledge is a legitimate yoga.

However, I agree that it is a long drawn out process. Bhakti is superior, imo, but no everyone is inclined to it. We're all unique, I-Ching. The curiosity for science is also God-given.

Science can be used for a good purpose in terms of using a thorn to take out a thorn. But once the thorn is gone, then you throw it away. Science is inherently atheistic, since from the beginning you are rejecting the authority of sastra and accepting the authority of your senses.

You have a point that it could be considered to be jnana-yoga but practically who is going to attain perfection through this process.

 

[I-Ching]

Oh, a magic incantation. Of course.

What are you afraid of why not experiment. Where is your scientific curiosity.

But they're incompatible with one another, especially if you consider morality absolute and universal. Many of them advocated death, torture and subjugation. I find these things to be abhorrent, and if you think they're of god then I find your perception and portrayal of god to be abhorrent as well.

Perhaps you could give specific examples.

 

[Father Heathen]

What are you afraid of why not experiment. Where is your scientific curiosity.

What if god appears, only to tell me that you're full of ****? Or what if I claim that god appeared, and told me to tell you to obey my every command? See the folly of blindly following holy men and scripture?

Perhaps you could give specific examples.

Exodus 21:7-11 instructs the believer on how to sell their own daughter into sexual slavery. Any god that would condone such a horrific injustice would be a monster unworthy of worship.

Now I know you follow the hindu vedas, but you said all scripture comes from god.

 

[I-Ching]

What if god appears, only to tell me that you're full of ****?

Exodus 21:7-11 instructs the believer on how to sell their own daughter into sexual slavery.

I'm not really an authority on the Bible or an advocate of it. The people that the Bible where given to were quite barbaric to begin with and I think you have to understand the passage in relation to that culture. Which is a lot different than our own?

Now I know you follow the hindu vedas, but you said all scripture comes from god.

Scripture by definition comes from God, but not all "scriptures" are Scriptures. The Vedas were spoken to a people in a highly advanced spiritual culture and if you read them you will see that the dialogue is a lot more spiritual.

 

[Madhuri]

Science is inherently atheistic, since from the beginning you are rejecting the authority of sastra and accepting the authority of your senses.

Science is not atheistic, as it is not a sentient creature. Though it is true that many who are devoted to science are atheistic, it is not a law that one must choose between science and religion. If the study of science is accompanied by the study of sastra, for example, then what this means is that the individual is simply gaining an insight into the laws of God's material potency.

I think that science has had good and bad contributions. Because of scientific advancement, we are less ignorant about some aspects of life that has helped us to better our attitudes, behaviour and experience of life. But it also has had negative influences. This is the nature of the material universe. All things come with good and bad.

 

[Father Heathen]

I'm not really an authority on the Bible or an advocate of it. The people that the Bible where given to were quite barbaric to begin with and I think you have to understand the passage in relation to that culture. Which is a lot different than our own?

Then what is it doing being included with something that's supposed to represent God's will? Shouldn't god's righteousness supersede the cultural norms of mortals?

 

[Father Heathen]

Science is the misuse of our reason.

Science created the medicine and technology you use, including the computer you're sitting at.

 

[I-Ching]

Science is not atheistic, as it is not a sentient creature. Though it is true that many who are devoted to science are atheistic, it is not a law that one must choose between science and religion. If the study of science is accompanied by the study of sastra, for example, then what this means is that the individual is simply gaining an insight into the laws of God's material potency.

I think that science has had good and bad contributions. Because of scientific advancement, we are less ignorant about some aspects of life that has helped us to better our attitudes, behaviour and experience of life. But it also has had negative influences. This is the nature of the material universe. All things come with good and bad.

"They say that this world is unreal, with no foundation, no God in control. They say it is produced of sex desire and has no cause other than lust. Following such conclusions, the demoniac, who are lost to themselves and who have no intelligence, engage in unbeneficial, horrible works meant to destroy the world." Bg 16.8-9 To me this verse refers to science and technology. Like I said you can use it to serve Krishna but you have to understand what you are using.

How has science and technology benefited human society spiritually? If we could go back to living a in simple agrarian God-conscious society I think we would be a lot happier spiritually and materially.

 

[I-Ching]

Then what is it doing being included with something that's supposed to represent God's will? Shouldn't god's righteousness supersede the cultural norms of mortals?

God gives scriptures to suit the time, place and circumstance. As I already said. Our time place and circumstance is a lot different from that of the Old Testament. I’m sure people of that time did not find that passage offensive. I also was not very impressed by the Bible that’s why I found a scripture that is more suitable to someone who is more philosophically inclined.

Science created the medicine and technology you use, including the computer you're sitting at.

I know many people that are chronically ill and modern medicine can’t help them. I myself was one of them before I cured myself with Ayurveda and the I-Ching. The inadequacy of modern medicine is an example of limits of empiricism. Since much of bodies functioning is hidden from our senses, that is why modern medicine does not understand how the body works on fundamental level.
In terms of using technology I am using a thorn to take out a thorn.

 

[Father Heathen]

God gives scriptures to suit the time, place and circumstance. As I already said. Our time place and circumstance is a lot different from that of the Old Testament.

But shouldn't the wisdom, justice, mercy and compassion of god supersede the cultural norms of primitive savages? If god allowed not only slavery but also the rape and beating of slaves then he is an evil god unworthy of worship.
Fortunately, if there is a god I'm confident such "scripture" bares no reflection upon "him". Like I said, anyone can say or write anything and claim it came from god or at least has his stamp of approval.

 

[I-Ching]

But shouldn't the wisdom, justice, mercy and compassion of god supersede the cultural norms of primitive savages? If god allowed not only slavery but also the rape and beating of slaves then he is an evil god unworthy of worship.
Fortunately, if there is a god I'm confident such "scripture" bares no reflection upon "him". Like I said, anyone can say or write anything and claim it came from god or at least has his stamp of approval.

I am also doubtful of authenticity of the Bible, but I still think there is a lot of wisdom to be found in it. No that specific passage though.

 

[PolyHedral]

Let me give an analogy to further illustrate my point:
There are six blind men trying to understand what is an elephant. Each man is feeling a different part of the animal and saying that an elephant is like this or like that. Due to their limited senses their perceptions are obvious inaccurate.

A man with full vision sees the elephant and tells the blind men what an elephant is and then they know.

So the six blind men are like scientists trying to understand reality through their limited senses and obviously making mistakes. This the ascending process of knowledge.

A far easier way for the blind men to learn is to ask a man who can see. This the descending process and this only way that we can have perfect knowledge.

How do you know the man can see? Logical conclusions are only as strong as their weakest premise.

 

[Father Heathen]

I am also doubtful of authenticity of the Bible,

So you're retracting your statement that all scripture is from god? How do you tell if something is authentic in regards to god? That's what I've been asking.

 

[chinu]

The scientific method is based on a flawed axiom that we can know the reality through our senses. Unfortunately all human beings are subject to four defects:
1) Our senses are limited and imperfect
2) We make mistakes
3) We are in illusion
4) We cheat.

Due these defects we can not know the Truth through this method. In order to have perfect knowledge you must hear from higher authority. Just like if you want to know your father you have to ask your mother. You can't go to every man and test them.

Who will agree on this ? such persons --- who argee on these things are known as "Gone-Mad" in this new scientfic world.

O chinu ! do you want to be mad ?
Than keep the secret.

_/\_
Chinu

 

[I-Ching]

So you're retracting your statement that all scripture is from god? How do you tell if something is authentic in regards to god? That's what I've been asking.

What I said is that Scripture by definition is from God. That doesn't mean that everything that humans consider scripture is in fact Scripture.