All loving or morally reprehensible?

[InChrist]

Well, if "he" couldn't think of anything better than this, then "he" certainly is not "perfect", let alone "all-good".

I don't believe in any creator, as I've said. I am discussing concepts. Doesn't mean that I lend them any credibility, since I don't.

Okay, so you are just discussing concepts, but if the concept of God is perfect as presented in the scriptures, then wouldn't His ultimate plan of and for creation of necessity also then be perfect? Maybe you as a finite being just can't see or understand the entire picture yet. Isn't that a possibility?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Okay, so you are just discussing concepts, but if the concept of God is perfect as presented in the scriptures, then wouldn't His ultimate plan of and for creation of necessity also then be perfect? Maybe you as a finite being just can't see or understand the entire picture yet. Isn't that a possibility?

I wouldn't call a universe built on strife, pain, suffering and death "perfect". None of those things would come from a "perfect" creator with a "perfect" plan. If "he" really was "perfect", then evil would not have come into existence. Nothing would've gone wrong since perfection can only beget perfection.

Besides, if "he" is truly "perfect", then why did "he" create anything at all? From the looks of how Christians explain "him", "he" wants to be loved by "his" creations. Why would a perfect being need or want love, especially from an inferior species? The Gods I believe in don't want nor need anything from humanity. They don't care if we love or believe in Them. They will continue to perform Their purpose, as always. It's like humans yearning for ants to love them. I don't care if ants love me. Why is your god so petty, if "he" is "perfect"? Your god is not "perfect". It is illogical to claim otherwise.

 

[1137]

Okay, so you are just discussing concepts, but if the concept of God is perfect as presented in the scriptures, then wouldn't His ultimate plan of and for creation of necessity also then be perfect? Maybe you as a finite being just can't see or understand the entire picture yet. Isn't that a possibility?

Keep telling yourself this if it helps rationalize the horrible nature of our Existence.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Keep telling yourself this if it helps rationalize the horrible nature of our Existence.

The only Christians that make sense are Gnostic Christians. The rest is built on foolishness.

 

[Brynhild]

I agree that if god is truly all powerful he should be able to save us all easily. He doesnt. He created hell instead. Therefore he is an evil god. In my view Lucifer is the good guy.

 

[InChrist]

It's scripture, if I'm not mistaken, teaching to love god or perish. I do see why you might believe this to be a great world from god's perspective, it's the ultimate ultimatum! Again, is it benevolent or manipulative to say in will let you be if you love me but torture you if you do not?

It's not exactly scripture teaching "to love God or perish". The scriptures actually say things to the effect of... unless you repent you will perish, whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life, and for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So rather than an ultimatum, the scriptures present a judgment sentence to which God offers an alternative. The penalty of sin is death and according to the scriptures, and I believe reality, everyone is guilty. God in His loving mercy has provided a way to escape the penalty and have a new changed eternal life to anyone who will accept it.

I consider this the ultimate in benevolence. I also see the torment of eternal damnation as twofold: the pain of the one knowing all too well that true benevolence was rejected and an eternal existence in darkness outside of all that is pure, good, light, and love in God.

 

[InChrist]

I wouldn't call a universe built on strife, pain, suffering and death "perfect". None of those things would come from a "perfect" creator with a "perfect" plan. If "he" really was "perfect", then evil would not have come into existence. Nothing would've gone wrong since perfection can only beget perfection.

So you are not willing to admit that humans have any responsibility for the conditions of this world/ The Bible is very clear that sin human sin is the cause.

Besides, if "he" is truly "perfect", then why did "he" create anything at all? From the looks of how Christians explain "him", "he" wants to be loved by "his" creations. Why would a perfect being need or want love, especially from an inferior species? The Gods I believe in don't want nor need anything from humanity. They don't care if we love or believe in Them. They will continue to perform Their purpose, as always. It's like humans yearning for ants to love them. I don't care if ants love me. Why is your god so petty, if "he" is "perfect"? Your god is not "perfect". It is illogical to claim otherwise.

[/quote]

Why do people share? Why do people give special gifts to one another? Why do humans in love so often want children to share their love with? God is love and love gives and includes others.

Nice chatting with you, but I need to get going now. Have a good night.

 

[1137]

It's not exactly scripture teaching "to love God or perish". The scriptures actually say things to the effect of... unless you repent you will perish, whoever believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life, and for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

So rather than an ultimatum, the scriptures present a judgment sentence to which God offers an alternative. The penalty of sin is death and according to the scriptures, and I believe reality, everyone is guilty. God in His loving mercy has provided a way to escape the penalty and have a new changed eternal life to anyone who will accept it.

I consider this the ultimate in benevolence. I also see the torment of eternal damnation as twofold: the pain of the one knowing all too well that true benevolence was rejected and an eternal existence in darkness outside of all that is pure, good, light, and love in God.

Needing worship and such as allowed to love is not better. It's a pretty warped idea of benevolence to think that the ultimate benevolence includes eternal suffering / perishing / whatever. I actually feel bad that this is how you view love and goodness.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So you are not willing to admit that humans have any responsibility for the conditions of this world/ The Bible is very clear that sin human sin is the cause.

Of course humans are responsible for the bad that we personally create. But even much of the bad things that humans are responsible for are a product of existential crisis. Our desperation, ultimate despair and feeling of displacement in a cruel world that seemingly offers no answers. We super-apes are a tortured species. We're not responsible for being born into a universe built on suffering, pain and violence. We didn't create the predator/prey dynamic. We're not responsible for the reality that living beings must consume each other in order to survive. We're not responsible for the harsh reality of bloodied tooth and claw and sentient beings rent asunder, in horrific agony, while fighting for their lives in Nature. If there is a creator, then this creator is the one to be held responsible for this. "He" could've made it so that all creatures receive the essential energy for survival directly from the Sun, like plants do. But, no. "He" created plant eaters and meat eaters. But apparently you Christians wish to blame those things on the fall of man, which is a sad cop-out. Which brings another problem into the picture: hubris. Humans are not so important as to affect the inherent order of the universe. Are we also responsible for the collision of gigantic celestial bodies into one another, that destroy planets and whatever may be living on them, too? Are we responsible for the death of Suns, supernovas and black holes?

Why do people share? Why do people give special gifts to one another? Why do humans in love so often want children to share their love with? God is love and love gives and includes others.

God is not a human being so our wants and needs aren't the same as what a perfect being would desire, if anything. Your god is obviously not one of love, either.

Nice chatting with you, but I need to get going now. Have a good night.

Likewise.

 

[yokomodoful]

I was talking with a good pastor friend of mine about God, heaven, sin, that type of thing. We were actually talking about the idea that Christians need to spread the word, I asked why he cared about salvation of others if he's all set. He responded by saying that God wants everyone saved, since he is all loving and such. I came back saying; well no, if God wanted us all saved he could just do it. He gave some banal mini-speech on sin, after which I restated that if God was all loving we'd be saved, yet the actual case seems to be God needs to get off on our own self loathing, groveling for forgiveness. For the first time in our friendship I saw that look of doubt being fought away, and I couldn't help but smile.

So what's your opinion? Is this Christian god-concept an all loving, perfect father figure or a sadistic, morally reprehensible creepy uncle?

Since I am christian, my answer is obvious- God is all loving and perfect. I am not sure of your perspective.
1. If you believe that the christian God exists why do you think you are in a position to judge him? You are not God the creator of heaven and earth. He is however in a position to judge you. He created you and he has walked on this earth. If you believe he exists than by definition Morality is based on whatever he is, and says.
2. If you don't believe he exists than you are debating about something imaginary to which there is really no correct answer and the answers are only limited by one's imagination.

 

[adi2d]

Since I am christian, my answer is obvious- God is all loving and perfect. I am not sure of your perspective.
1. If you believe that the christian God exists why do you think you are in a position to judge him? You are not God the creator of heaven and earth. He is however in a position to judge you. He created you and he has walked on this earth. If you believe he exists than by definition Morality is based on whatever he is, and says.
2. If you don't believe he exists than you are debating about something imaginary to which there is really no correct answer and the answers are only limited by one's imagination.

As others have posted the discussion is about the concept of God. Would an all loving God create all the suffering in this world?

 

[yokomodoful]

As others have posted the discussion is about the concept of God. Would an all loving God create all the suffering in this world?

He has allowed suffering for awhile, but He is not done yet. Jesus showed us that you can accept suffering and give back love. I do not see eternity. I do not have all the answers and I do not judge God. I am not even in a position to judge my neighbor because I have not walked in their shoes. How can I expect to judge God when I can not see as He sees or think as He thinks.

 

[adi2d]

He has allowed suffering for awhile, but He is not done yet. Jesus showed us that you can accept suffering and give back love. I do not see eternity. I do not have all the answers and I do not judge God. I am not even in a position to judge my neighbor because I have not walked in their shoes. How can I expect to judge God when I can not see as He sees or think as He thinks.

He allows suffering. Causes some of it. WHY is the question. In an earlier post I showed one way suffering could be reduced. I'm a pretty dim bulb and I can't see why we would need to suffer to please an all knowing all powerful deity

 

[yokomodoful]

He allows suffering. Causes some of it. WHY is the question. In an earlier post I showed one way suffering could be reduced. I'm a pretty dim bulb and I can't see why we would need to suffer to please an all knowing all powerful deity

It is a mystery. The book of Job attempts to answer the question of human suffering. The ressurection would not be possible without the cross. I do not think that this question can be answered completely without seeing the fullness of time or truth which our finite minds are incapable of. I have not seen any other religion or philosophy which has a better answer.

 

[1137]

It is a mystery. The book of Job attempts to answer the question of human suffering. The ressurection would not be possible without the cross. I do not think that this question can be answered completely without seeing the fullness of time or truth which our finite minds are incapable of. I have not seen any other religion or philosophy which has a better answer.

Don't mix the Hebrew Scriptures and Christian ones. Pick.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It is a mystery. The book of Job attempts to answer the question of human suffering. The ressurection would not be possible without the cross. I do not think that this question can be answered completely without seeing the fullness of time or truth which our finite minds are incapable of. I have not seen any other religion or philosophy which has a better answer.

Almost all of them BUT the Abrahamic religions offer better answers! All Judaism, Christianity and Islam do is either: Throw up their hands, blame it in humanity or claim that it's a "mystery".

 

[1137]

Almost all of them BUT the Abrahamic religions offer better answers! All Judaism, Christianity and Islam do is either: Throw up their hands, blame it in humanity or claim that it's a "mystery".

No... Judaism understands God is creator of both. Jews in Auschwitz found god guilty for crimes against humanity.

 

[adi2d]

It is a mystery. The book of Job attempts to answer the question of human suffering. The ressurection would not be possible without the cross. I do not think that this question can be answered completely without seeing the fullness of time or truth which our finite minds are incapable of. I have not seen any other religion or philosophy which has a better answer.

The book of Job? Really? That book shows two bullies messing up a mans life just because they can. Taking a mans family is cruel. And please don't excuse it by saying Job got new family. More cruel than pulling wings off a fly. IMHO of course

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No... Judaism understands God is creator of both. Jews in Auschwitz found god guilty for crimes against humanity.

Yeah, the cause but it doesn't state the purpose, at least not in the book of Job. At the end, Job just resigns himself to it after being lectured by Yahweh about not questioning him.

 

[1137]

Yeah, the cause but it doesn't state the purpose, at least not in the book of Job. At the end, Job just resigns himself to it after being lectured by Yahweh about not questioning him.

What do you mean "the purpose". Now that I think about it I have never wen really heard of this in Judaism (mind blown). I was always one of God's chosen people whether I went against him or not, believed or not, practiced or not.