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For those who believe that only Christians go to heaven...

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
Roli, stop and think about what you're saying. You're a Christian. You believe in the Abrahamic God, the God who is spoken of in the Bible. Are you seriously saying that someone who has never heard of this God, who has been raised in the Hindu religion and has learned only of the Hindu gods automatically has a knowledge of the God in whom you believe and more specifically of Jesus Christ? Please be reasonable. Think about what you're saying and how completely irrational it is for you to insist that someone could possibly know about Jesus Christ without having ever heard of Him.

You and a host of others are the one's that think you have all the answers...and they must be totally logical in order to counted valid.
Step of your box a little and embrace reality.
Do you think that there are any occurences in life/religious expereinces,technology etc. that happen, that on the onset appear totally illogical and irrational to the human mind, but are nevertheless things that have and do happen.

...for example and I'll be curious how you rationalise this...
I was in Ethiopia doing some mission work several years ago An associate with the missionary organisation I was involved with was sharing to a small group of us how he was randomly flying his helicopter into remote areas of the Country, particularily the mountain regions bringing food ,clothes etc and sharing the gospel to people groups who have never heard or seen a white man before, much less the Christian God or Christ, or any religion for that matter.

When he approached this group of very primitive people and landed his helicopter, one man imparticular came running out from his village, smiling,waving his hands, and almost weeping in excitement while welcoming my freind in.

Apparently, what had happened to this villager the previous night and why he was so ecstatic was that he had a dream or vision and Jesus appeared to him and talked with him and told him," a white man will come from the sky, as a bird to visit him and talk to him about me(Jesus) There was no forwarning or previous encounter with God or Jesus up until that point, but God appeared through Jesus Christ to this man and probably changed the whole village.

This is no isolated incident and certainly not limited to this identical experience, but God will do what he chooses to do,regardless of whether or not we can put our arrogant minds around it,because he often works outside the box of human reasoning to put to shame the arrogant intellects of today's philosophical age.

This story is a bit more detailed then that but my point is that logic has it's place
but it's not so black and white as many make it,therefore I think it can't be rational itself for one to hold the position alone that asserts "this is not logical therefore it can not be valid"
This is the essence of narrowmindedness,
I have heard many other stories and testimonies of people who have had smilar experinces and that can be easily rationalised away by skeptics and unbelievers but does not negate the validity of such an experience.

So maybe you need to stop and think for minute about what it is your saying.
We can philosophize this thing inside and out ,but I refuse to entertain you in trying to explain that sometimes things in life and with God are unexplainable.
Is there an answer,conclusion, purpose maybe even a theory, absolutely, but maybe not at present or for that matter in this lifetime.
..so it's futile to think so !!!


Man sitting so proudly on his pinnacal of higher thinking and lofty notions of rational thought, thinking they got it all together,..but whamm....!! God does something only God could to do and put to shame and silence the wisdom of skeptics of this age.
And I believe He is about to do it again on a grand scale.
 

HoldemDB9

Active Member
roli, yes or no - do you believe that every single human being on the planet has an equal chance of becoming a Christian?
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
roli, yes or no - do you believe that every single human being on the planet has an equal chance of becoming a Christian?
I think you are fighting fire with fire.
The right question is, does every single human being on the planet has an equal chance of being free of the good news.
 

Beaudreaux

Well-Known Member
You and a host of others are the one's that think you have all the answers...and they must be totally logical in order to counted valid.
Step of your box a little and embrace reality.
Do you think that there are any occurences in life/religious expereinces,technology etc. that happen, that on the onset appear totally illogical and irrational to the human mind, but are nevertheless things that have and do happen.

...for example and I'll be curious how you rationalise this...
I was in Ethiopia doing some mission work several years ago An associate with the missionary organisation I was involved with was sharing to a small group of us how he was randomly flying his helicopter into remote areas of the Country, particularily the mountain regions bringing food ,clothes etc and sharing the gospel to people groups who have never heard or seen a white man before, much less the Christian God or Christ, or any religion for that matter.

When he approached this group of very primitive people and landed his helicopter, one man imparticular came running out from his village, smiling,waving his hands, and almost weeping in excitement while welcoming my freind in.

Apparently, what had happened to this villager the previous night and why he was so ecstatic was that he had a dream or vision and Jesus appeared to him and talked with him and told him," a white man will come from the sky, as a bird to visit him and talk to him about me(Jesus) There was no forwarning or previous encounter with God or Jesus up until that point, but God appeared through Jesus Christ to this man and probably changed the whole village.

This is no isolated incident and certainly not limited to this identical experience, but God will do what he chooses to do,regardless of whether or not we can put our arrogant minds around it,because he often works outside the box of human reasoning to put to shame the arrogant intellects of today's philosophical age.

This story is a bit more detailed then that but my point is that logic has it's place
but it's not so black and white as many make it,therefore I think it can't be rational itself for one to hold the position alone that asserts "this is not logical therefore it can not be valid"
This is the essence of narrowmindedness,
I have heard many other stories and testimonies of people who have had smilar experinces and that can be easily rationalised away by skeptics and unbelievers but does not negate the validity of such an experience.

So maybe you need to stop and think for minute about what it is your saying.
We can philosophize this thing inside and out ,but I refuse to entertain you in trying to explain that sometimes things in life and with God are unexplainable.
Is there an answer,conclusion, purpose maybe even a theory, absolutely, but maybe not at present or for that matter in this lifetime.
..so it's futile to think so !!!


Man sitting so proudly on his pinnacal of higher thinking and lofty notions of rational thought, thinking they got it all together,..but whamm....!! God does something only God could to do and put to shame and silence the wisdom of skeptics of this age.
And I believe He is about to do it again on a grand scale.
So, here's my response. Today I drove someplace and when I got to where I was going, not a single person there ran out to me and told me that Jesus told them in a dream the night before about me coming. This has happened to me thousands of times in my lifetime. I also know hundreds of people for which this has also happened, and I'd be willing to bet a dollar that there are many many more than that.

Your experience is due to something called "The Law of Truly Large Numbers":
"That a particular specified event or coincidence will occur is very unlikely. That some astonishing unspecified events will occur is certain. That is why remarkable coincidences are noted in hindsight, not predicted with foresight."--David G. Myers(law of truly large numbers - coincidence - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com).
That is why people sometimes dream something that "comes true". Think of all the dreams you will have in a lifetime. Then thing of the millions of individual experiences you will have. The chances that one of those experience will happen after one of those dreams and that the two will be similar are not that far fetched.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You and a host of others are the one's that think you have all the answers...and they must be totally logical in order to counted valid.
Roli, as a Mormon, I believe in a lot of things most people would consider to be illogical, so please don't make an accusation that makes no sense whatsoever. All I'm saying is that if you think a six-year-old kid, born in a brothel in Calcutta, malnourished and sick most of the time, and never having heard of Jesus Christ has the same opportunity to embrace Christianity as your children do, I think you're living in a dream world.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Roli, as a Mormon, I believe in a lot of things most people would consider to be illogical, so please don't make an accusation that makes no sense whatsoever. All I'm saying is that if you think a six-year-old kid, born in a brothel in Calcutta, malnourished and sick most of the time, and never having heard of Jesus Christ has the same opportunity to embrace Christianity as your children do, I think you're living in a dream world.

Who has not heard the gospel? The gospel has been preached since the times of the OT and jesus himself went to preach to the spirits in prison (where EVERYBODY was).

When people hear the gospel it is not new news, it is good news. And they testify to the truth that they have already been saved. They were save that day on the cross. Which is why people who did not put their faith in jesus to save them find the gospel ludicrous. So why be born into a hindu nation that would find the gospel ludicrous anyway? But even if god did decide to make one of his children be born in a hindu town...there is nothing that can keep him from his child anyway. That is the power of god. The saving power of jesus saved us on the cross, it does not save us and change our spiritual identity in the future. People who hear the good news and goes 'ahhh...yes' are people who were witnesses to the saving work of jesus on the cross. You cannot be a witness unless you were there at the event to witness that jesus saved you. So then...peoople who did not put their faith in jesus to save them, that day on the cross, have been under the wrath of god since then, and hearing the gospel is like listening to a terribly song on the radio, over and over...it never makes sense...and never will, since they were not witnesses to being saved, and therefore cannot testify to the truth of it.

heneni
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
roli, yes or no - do you believe that every single human being on the planet has an equal chance of becoming a Christian?

Absolutely, yes, to your wording of the question.
You like the straight answers without elaboration, don't you !!!!
Could you define, "chance" and "equal"

According to God's word, he does not operate on "chance" and God reaches into peoples lives quite differently, but when it's all said and done,everyone will have been given opportunity to choose to believe in the Judeo Christian God according to their particular,situation, culture,race,enviroment, gender,religion and may it be said that none will have an excuse.

It would be ludicrous to assume God would not provide a means for people to acknowledge him.
The way he does that when we look to those people who are eating out of dumps in 3rd world countries and have never heard mention of God ,bible etc, may certainly be beyond our ability to comprehend, but he does it nevertheless and does not need our finite minds to be able to understand how he touches the heart of people everywhere.
if I never experienced first hand, the miracles and testimonies of how God touches people in 3rd world countries, I would be on the fense as well.
So I understand how you and others can't put your head around this concept regarding God,becasue you are looking at it purely from a natural viewpoint.

If we could chart all the knowledge of everything in the world in a circle and identify our personal knowledge as a dot,I think it might represent,and I'm being gracious here to humans, 1/1000000000000000 of that knowledge ,does that make room for the possibility for God to, not only exist, but touch who he wants however he wants dispite those people actually having to verifiablly alert every other person around them of God speaking to their heart.

The problem with man is they are so inundated with stuff, through their natural senses and personal experinces,indulges,carnal appitites and practices that they can no longer distinguish the voice of God speaking to their hearts and to be perfectly frank ,they could care less for his touch over the sensual pleasures and stimulations the worldly indulgences give them.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
This thread reminds me of that joke about the pagan in heaven.

A Pagan man dies and finds himself standing in front of luminescent gates, met by a another man who introduces himself as Peter. Peter says "Oh one of our Pagan brethren! Come right this way!" and leads the Pagan through the gates and towards a beautiful sunny field, surrounded by trees, wildflowers blowing in a wonderful breeze, and many people dancing and singing. He recognizes a few of his pagan friends who have gone before him and they are smiling and welcoming him to their circles. He then notices a group of people huddled at the edge of the meadow who are looking very upset and some almost livid. He turns to Peter, points to the unhappy group, and asks "What's wrong with them?" Peter looks and kind of chuckles and shakes his head "Oh them? They're fundamentalist Christians. They think they are in Hell."
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This thread reminds me of that joke about the pagan in heaven.

A Pagan man dies and finds himself standing in front of luminescent gates, met by a another man who introduces himself as Peter. Peter says "Oh one of our Pagan brethren! Come right this way!" and leads the Pagan through the gates and towards a beautiful sunny field, surrounded by trees, wildflowers blowing in a wonderful breeze, and many people dancing and singing. He recognizes a few of his pagan friends who have gone before him and they are smiling and welcoming him to their circles. He then notices a group of people huddled at the edge of the meadow who are looking very upset and some almost livid. He turns to Peter, points to the unhappy group, and asks "What's wrong with them?" Peter looks and kind of chuckles and shakes his head "Oh them? They're fundamentalist Christians. They think they are in Hell."
LOL! I think there are an awful lot of people who are going to be quite distraught at whom they find was admitted to their private little club.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
LOL! I think there are an awful lot of people who are going to be quite distraught at whom they find was admitted to their private little club.

Is it not god who chooses his people? Are you unhappy that he does this? Would you rather he not choose anybody and choose everybody? If so...then show me in the bible...where he has said...that he has chosen everybody for salvation. And also...based on what does he choose people? Can you narrow it down?

Heneni
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
LOL! I think there are an awful lot of people who are going to be quite distraught at whom they find was admitted to their private little club.

Kinda like spending all your money on buying tickets to "the most exclusive event of the decade" and once you get in you realize that it's Woodstock?
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Is it not god who chooses his people? Are you unhappy that he does this? Would you rather he not choose anybody and choose everybody? If so...then show me in the bible...where he has said...that he has chosen everybody for salvation. And also...based on what does he choose people? Can you narrow it down?

Heneni


Doesn't that all kind of depend on whether or not it is your god that even exists? Or if there is one at all? I know this may come as a complete shock to you...but...you could be wrong you know.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Doesn't that all kind of depend on whether or not it is your god that even exists? Or if there is one at all? I know this may come as a complete shock to you...but...you could be wrong you know.

I dont know....there is a huge difference between salvation and forgiveness.
God has forgiven the whole world for their offenses, but he did not save everybody.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I dont know....there is a huge difference between salvation and forgiveness.
God has forgiven the whole world for their offenses, but he did not save everybody.

Um, that doesn't address what I said at all, but I guess maybe I should expect that from you by now. :shrug:
 

logician

Well-Known Member
A better question is the whole ideal of extermal accoutability, like there's an "accountant" god somewhere bookkeeping our every move.
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
Um, that doesn't address what I said at all, but I guess maybe I should expect that from you by now. :shrug:

Oh im sorry, were you hoping for me to say that i could be wrong, :sorry1: or were you waiting for me to say that you are wrong for wondering whehter there is a god, which in effect would not be entirely true...there is no such things as somebody that does not believe in a god.

heneni
 

Heneni

Miss Independent
A better question is the whole ideal of extermal accoutability, like there's an "accountant" god somewhere bookkeeping our every move.

Love keeps no account of the wrongs done to it. Gods wrath is not because he is an angry god out for revenge for himself. However he is a god of justice, and said that he would bring justice for his children, and justice for the wicked.

Heneni
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Oh im sorry, were you hoping for me to say that i could be wrong, :sorry1: or were you waiting for me to say that you are wrong for wondering whehter there is a god, which in effect would not be entirely true...there is no such things as somebody that does not believe in a god.

heneni

I was hoping you were maybe intelligent enough to realize that of all the possibilities in the world that it may be possible that you might not have exactly the "right answer". Unfortunately it appears I was mistaken about that though.

Also...where did I say I wondered whether there was a god or not? You really DO like dictating other people's beliefs to them don't you?


And finally...how do you figure there is no such thing as a person that does not believe in a god? There are people who don't believe in gods...they're called atheists.

  1. [FONT=arial,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]God[/SIZE][/FONT] <LI type=a>A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
  2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
  3. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
  4. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
  5. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
A better question is the whole ideal of extermal accoutability, like there's an "accountant" god somewhere bookkeeping our every move.

The angelic offices that comprise the heavenly bureaucracy are the worst place of work an saint can find himself in ;) work work work, with no recognition.
Hell, on the other hand.. now that's the place to be posted at.. poking souls with pitch-forks for amusement and enjoying a warm weather, its practically heaven.
 
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