If Devout Jews rule Israel: Should Shabbath breakers be killed?

[james dixon]

wait, what?.,.,.,.,.,.,.,

In my view "kill" and "murder" are two different things. How about you?

 

[Flankerl]

In my view there are exception for every rule. To kill in self defense is one and to kill to sustain ones own life is another. If you feel I am wrong please correct me

Since it doesn't say "kill" in the original version I can't answer that.

 

[outhouse]

The current Jews in Israel are evil.

OP more sadness on your part.

 

[outhouse]

Well, atheists believe only they are smart and religionists are fools.

So people who study reality without bias, and have the knowledge some theist do not, are bad JUST because they actually know more then you?

Many theist are very educated, but many follow mythology and think it is real, despite what any factual evidence provides us. Many theist make fools of themselves because they are forced to live ancient mythology.

I think Jews should admit without fearing bullying atheists,

SOME don't care like you do. But the big difference is Jews do not refuse as a whole as much education as islam. Their religion does no stop them from learning [generally speaking]

I disagree with how Atheists think.

Of course you do. You refuse education and knowledge in favor of what most call mythology you actually know NOTHING about.


islam has to refuse credible knowledge, or the faith will fall apart.

the modern world knows it cannot teach you anything, because we know you refuse it. No facts will change your mind.


So we gear everything towards teaching the children who have open minds what we can, when we can. The key here is education. And its obvious you hate it.

 

[Etritonakin]

Seriously. Do you think a God who created the universe would give any thought at all to someone picking up sticks on a certain day of the week, much less demanding that His people take rocks and crush his skull? What kind of person could do such a thing and think he was doing it for a righteous God?

A person who had just been freed from slavery by that God.

However, the reasons the individual people did what they did are likely varied (some trusting in God for the end result, some not wanting to be next, etc....) -and are different than the reasons God had them do those things.

The Old Testament/Old Covenant judgments were very harsh -but nothing that was done in those days will not be undone. That dead person will be resurrected, be quite happy, and the former things will not be called to remembrance.

Meanwhile...... all that has happened since has happened -and his death had the necessary effect at the time.

It was part of the necessarily-imperfect old covenant process -which necessarily preceded the new covenant, as it prepared a people to receive the new covenant -and it is all part of a process which will make all perfect.

The death penalty of the old covenant kept certain sins from Israel by literally removing the sinner.
It also deterred people somewhat from doing certain acts -even if they were of a mind to do them.
Israel then produced a people whose minds were toward keeping the letter of the law -as they did not yet have that which would enable them to truly keep the spirit of the law -that being God's spirit put within them.
The purpose for having God's spirit in one is to enable them to keep the spirit of the law as well as the letter -in preparation for becoming part of the administration of God's government on Earth under Christ.
People had to be of a mind to obey the law -to see the reasons for the law -the benefits of keeping the law (which is different from the judgments concerning how to deal with disobedience to the law).
If sin was not literally kept from evil long enough to accomplish this -it would not have been accomplished.
It was a first step toward an end result.
The end result will be an Earth literally governed by Christ and those made immortal at his return. The Earth will then know the absence of war -and righteous government.

After that government is established, all who have ever lived will be raised to the judgment -which is not all gloom and doom -it is a purification process -and will be judged according to their works.
Those who utterly refuse to do good and obey necessary righteous government can be completely destroyed -but whether God is able to bring all to righteousness I do not know.
However, all who have ever lived will have the opportunity to receive eternal life.

Of the increase of the government of Christ there will be no end. The immortal children of God will eventually create throughout the universe -and perhaps beyond.

Harsh? Yes. However, extreme forces and processes produce awesome results.

Some related verses.... (still editing)

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Luk 19:17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Isa 9:5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Psa 19:10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Psa 19:11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

 

[Tumah]

I attended a Catholic school up to the third grade and all I was told is what is in the New Testament. It was not until I was in my 50’s that I started reading the Old as a past time. Now in my old age I know that the Old is where it all began. Now I can say, I have read the Bible cover to cover; how about you?

Your bible may be skipping out some parts.

 

[outhouse]

Torah says kill that man. Simple as that...

It is not simple as that.

Unlike islam

MOST ALL don't follow literally!!!! ancient words over 2000 years old for an ancient culture, they were not written for modern man.

Even YEC who don't follow education, do not read that literally, this is one of the major problems with islam

Your too literal, and this is an example of your severe fanaticism and fundamentalism. This is EXACTLY what happens when people do not know how to apply moderation to the religion your own prophet warned YOU about.

And or you just want to keep hatred alive, and take any cheap pot shots you can out of desperation as the whole world is starting to isolate your religion as it is being perceived as violent and primitive.

People like you are driving border lines in the ground, promoting separation between religions. Atheist on the other hand are fighting fanaticism in all religions.

 

[rosends]

In my view "kill" and "murder" are two different things. How about you?

which is fine except you quoted "kill" and said "no exceptions" and then gave exceptions. You should go back and rework the initial "quote."

 

[Etritonakin]

To address the OP, a devout follower of God should live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God....

(Deu 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.)

....which includes the changing -not of the law -but of the judgments concerning responses to disobedience to the law. In this case, the cessation of the death penalty.

So no person "should" kill those who do not keep the Sabbath. Whether they do or not is theirs.

Anyway -there will be enough killing of those who keep the commandments of God by others. Keeping the commandments of God -including the Sabbath -is a sign between God and his people.
They are as frontlets between the eyes and a sign upon the hand -literally in thought and deed.

The mark of the beast is also in the forehead and hand -displacing the commandments of God. Keeping the Sabbath and other commandments has much to do with refusing the mark of the beast.
Those who are expecting an actual mark do not understand it correctly -nor do many who consider the image of the beast understand that people are deceived by the second beast to "band together" and "be" (included in the definition of "make") the image of the beast themselves -which has much to do with their thoughts and deeds -that which they make themselves subject to and obey.

Furthermore, modern Israel will soon be attacked by a "multitude of strangers" for some years before the beast/king of fierce countenance/king of the north attempts a final final solution -called the abomination of desolation.
So... Jews have enough to consider without killing each other!

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[Godobeyer]

The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death
32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lordcommanded Moses.

And Apostates? The Scripture(Torah, i avoid that insultive word "OT") tells us to behead/execute apostates.

I think the actual Jews are not practice Judaism as their first elders .

they stop practice stone adultery, and they stopped execute the homosexual and they stopped marrying more than one woman,stopped the slavery FOR LONG TIME AGO.

 

[rosends]

I think the actual Jews are not practice Judaism as their first elders .

they stop practice stone adultery, and they stopped execute the homosexual and they stopped marrying more than one woman,stopped the slavery FOR LONG TIME AGO.

Or maybe...just maybe...actual Jews know what Judaism was and is better than you so in their actual practice they are doing it quite well. It is you who is mistaken.

 

[outhouse]

Or maybe...just maybe...actual Jews know what Judaism was and is better than you so in their actual practice they are doing it quite well. It is you who is mistaken.

I often find a need to correct him right or wrong. Honestly Godobeyer is correct here and did not need any snarky comments

Did your purposely take him out of context?


Most Jews do not really view you as a Jew anyway if I'm not mistaken, your view is the minority Jewish position, for you to speak as or for all Jewish people is not correct.

Here we have a muslim correcting another muslim in actual context, and your going to complain and try to correct him??? good lord! let him be. Every word he said was correct.

 

[outhouse]

I think the actual Jews are not practice Judaism as their first elders .

they stop practice stone adultery, and they stopped execute the homosexual and they stopped marrying more than one woman,stopped the slavery FOR LONG TIME AGO.

Good reply sir. Thank you.

 

[rosends]

I often find a need to correct him right or wrong. Honestly Godobeyer is correct here and did not need any snarky comments

Did your purposely take him out of context?


Most Jews do not really view you as a Jew anyway if I'm not mistaken, your view is the minority Jewish position, for you to speak as or for all Jewish people is not correct.

Here we have a muslim correcting another muslim in actual context, and your going to complain and try to correct him??? good lord! let him be. Every word he said was correct.

He said "I think the actual Jews are not practice Judaism as their first elders ." You like that. You are both wrong. Neither one then understands what Judaism is or was. A Jew who has lived it and studied it knows better than you. Deal with it. As to the contention that most Jews do not view me as Jewish, I have to say I'm confused. Can you cite a single Jew who would deny that I am Jewish? Sure, you may not like where I received ordination as a rabbi, or may not like my Orthodox approach, but that I am not Jewish? That is laughable. Put up or shut up.

He said nothing that was correct.

 

[outhouse]

As to the contention that most Jews do not view me as Jewish,

Sorry. The right term was "like calling you a jew", and from what I have learned it is because they feel like your giving the majority of jews a bad name.

But my point in context was YOU do not represent most Jews.

"I think the actual Jews are not practice Judaism as their first elders ."

And they factually do not practice what was practiced 2500 years ago

Deal with it

Typical.

Of course it is you who must follow your own advise. Todays people practice NOTHING like the Israelite did before the first century.

 

[rosends]

Sorry. The right term was "like calling you a jew", and from what I have learned it is because they feel like your giving the majority of jews a bad name.

How? By standing up for what Judaism is with actual first hand knowledge? Have you spoken to the majority of Jews or are you making things up?

But my point in context was YOU do not represent most Jews.

I represent Judaism significantly more and more accurately than you or another Muslim's feelings about it.

And they factually do not practice what was practiced 2500 years ago

Wrong. Keep saying. That doesn't make it so. it just means you don't understand what Jewish practice is and always has been. While there are particulars, like sacrifices, that have not been done in 2000 years, Judaism accounted for that so the underlying practice is the same even if some fo the rituals have changed.

Of course it is you who must follow your own advise. Todays people practice NOTHING like the Israelite did before the first century.

keep saying it. it just means you don't understand Judaism.

 

[outhouse]

Wrong.

Substantiate your claims

they stop practice stone adultery

Factual

they stopped execute the homosexual

Factual

they stopped marrying more than one woman

Factual

stopped the slavery

Factual

it just means you don't understand Judaism.

That's the problem, we do.


Sir you live in our world. We don't live in yours.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

How do you end the life of an animal to eat it without killing it?

You don't ... you become vegetarian .....

 

[rosends]

As suspected, you don't understand Judaism. There were capital punishments when there was a sanhedrin, a proper court. Built in to Judaism EVEN BACK THEN was that in the absence of that court, the executions COULD NOT TAKE PLACE. Thus, since we don't have that court now, and we don't execute anyone we are doing EXACTLY AS THEY DID when put in the same situation. Maybe if you learned Jewish law, as codified a couple of thousand years ago you might have a clue about practicing a religion vs. "doing" things. You clearly are confusing certain actions with practicing a complete religion. You should stop now before you embarrass yourself more.

You don't live in my world. You clearly know nothing of my world. Stop telling me that you know that I don't do what I do in my world.

 

[outhouse]

↑
they stop practice stone adultery

Factual

↑
they stopped execute the homosexual

Factual

↑
they stopped marrying more than one woman

Factual

↑
stopped the slavery

Factual