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Russia May Have Just Given Ukraine Terms for Ending War

F1fan

Veteran Member
The reason the U.S. has not attacked Russia is the same reason that we don't attack China and the same reason that neither of them attack us. However, for the same reason, we can rest assured that Putin will not attack any NATO country.

However, there are those who maintain that if they try to make peace with Putin, it will only encourage him to invade NATO countries. People are stating this as if they believe it to be fact, even though there's not a shred of evidence to prove it.
It's up to Ukraine to decide when to stop defending itself, and up to putin to decide when he no longer has a path to gain anything. NATO countries have been giving aid, some money and some war equipment. What many critics don't know or admit is that militaries only store bombs and ammo so long, and then destroy it for new stock, mostly for reliability reasons. Giving Ukraine this excess stuff costs us nothing. The US military would often blow up stores of munitions rather than transport them back to the USA.
It's upon this supposition that many believe Ukraine should be given a blank check by the U.S. The sensible thing to do right now is to make peace - even if it means Ukraine might lose some territory. But there are people who erroneously believe this would be "appeasement" and only encourage Putin to invade the rest of Europe, but there's absolutely zero basis to hold such a viewpoint.
I suspect a lot of the money is used for humanitarian aid, as Ukraine has a dire need for support.
Putin is a mobster who's apparently deluded himself into believing he has become the Tsar of all the Russias (to include White Russia and Little Russia, it seems). The people may fear him, but it's entirely likely that they fear the West even more. The common response from Westerners is that "Well, they have no reason to fear the West. We Westerners are so nice and wonderful, why would anyone be afraid of little old us?"
I still don't get what putin was thinking, and still thinking. After hosting the Olympics he could have further built ties with the rest of the world but has sabotaged all that. Westerners are wary of traveling to Russia in fear of being taken hostage. Whatever legacy putin leaves it won't be a good one at this point.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
It's up to Ukraine to decide when to stop defending itself, and up to putin to decide when he no longer has a path to gain anything. NATO countries have been giving aid, some money and some war equipment. What many critics don't know or admit is that militaries only store bombs and ammo so long, and then destroy it for new stock, mostly for reliability reasons. Giving Ukraine this excess stuff costs us nothing. The US military would often blow up stores of munitions rather than transport them back to the USA.

I suspect a lot of the money is used for humanitarian aid, as Ukraine has a dire need for support.

I still don't get what putin was thinking, and still thinking. After hosting the Olympics he could have further built ties with the rest of the world but has sabotaged all that. Westerners are wary of traveling to Russia in fear of being taken hostage. Whatever legacy putin leaves it won't be a good one at this point.

"I suspect a lot of the money is used for humanitarian aid, as Ukraine has a dire need for support

Do you ever research the things you talk about? For example.. Humanitarian aid has received the least of it.

Of $76.8 billion....

"Humanitarian -$3.9 billion (5%)
Financial -$26.4 billion (34%)
Security assistance -$18.3 billion (24%)
Weapons and equipment -$23.5 billion (31%)
Grants and loans for weapons and equipment -$4.7 billion(6%)"

 

F1fan

Veteran Member
"I suspect a lot of the money is used for humanitarian aid, as Ukraine has a dire need for support

Do you ever research the things you talk about?
Can you ever post anything without hostility?
For example.. Humanitarian aid has received the least of it.

Of $76.8 billion....

"Humanitarian -$3.9 billion (5%)
Financial -$26.4 billion (34%)
Security assistance -$18.3 billion (24%)
Weapons and equipment -$23.5 billion (31%)
Grants and loans for weapons and equipment -$4.7 billion(6%)"

Thanks for that breakdown.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It's up to Ukraine to decide when to stop defending itself, and up to putin to decide when he no longer has a path to gain anything. NATO countries have been giving aid, some money and some war equipment. What many critics don't know or admit is that militaries only store bombs and ammo so long, and then destroy it for new stock, mostly for reliability reasons. Giving Ukraine this excess stuff costs us nothing. The US military would often blow up stores of munitions rather than transport them back to the USA.

The cost isn't really the main issue, as I see it. But your first sentence is correct in that this is mainly a fight between Russia and Ukraine, ostensibly for reasons related to long-term resentments going back centuries. It's a complicated history, to say the least.


I suspect a lot of the money is used for humanitarian aid, as Ukraine has a dire need for support.

I still don't get what putin was thinking, and still thinking. After hosting the Olympics he could have further built ties with the rest of the world but has sabotaged all that. Westerners are wary of traveling to Russia in fear of being taken hostage. Whatever legacy putin leaves it won't be a good one at this point.

I think the collapse of the USSR led to significant level of corruption under Yeltsin. I recall hearing a lot of stories about the "Russian Mafia," an international crime syndicate with a reputation for utter ruthlessness. Crime within Russia itself was running rampant. Poverty, destitution, and chaos reigned. Another "Time of Troubles." Putin seems to have arisen out of that morass of corruption and chaos. His government also seems more like a "mobocracy" - and definitely a kleptocracy which has cut into their ability to fight wars. I can't tell if Putin is a nationalist or just some kind of mob boss who is out of his element. If Al Capone or Lucky Luciano ever became President, what would it look like?
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
The Russian people are not nearly so enamored with Putin as you claim. I have seen many Russians interviewed on the street. The older ones, that grew up under the Soviet Union love Putin and everything he does. But everyone else is very mixed on him, or afraid to speak, meaning they are not supportive, but fear saying so in public.

And yet the Russian army has been pushed back, and continues to be pushed back. Because it doesn't take a lot of soldiers to fire a missile. And Ukraine is not going to run out of missiles.

Ukraine will join NATO for sure, now, when the fighting stops. They will have to, to protect themselves from further Russian attack and incursion.

We will see.

didn't say everyone in Russia likes him .. but he is hugely popular .. more so than Biden .. that is for sure. Your inferred claim that Putin's Russia is anything like Stalin's Soviet Union .. is false nonsense propaganda gibberish that you ingested somewhere.

"Russian Army has been pushed back - Not going to run out of missiles" -- You have no conception of what is happening on the Battlefield

Ukrain has already run out of missiles -- you realize this doesn't mean they have NO Missiles right ? Good .. Javelins are gone .. no resupply in sight .. Patriot missiles are gone .. sorry .. we don't make them that fast. but this is an artillery war .. so why you talking missiles ? other than you havn't the faintest what you are talking about.. Ukraine has enough missiles to do terrorist strikes from time to time .. and don't cry like a baby to me about the word terrorism .. not my definition .. but the US /NATO definition. Russia on the other hand has many missiles .. and way more drones .. and control of the air space ..along the front line .... important in an artillery battle.

After the initial surge into Ukraine .. all the way to Keiv .. Russia then pulled back - in large part due to massive Ukrainian Strength at the time. They maintained control of the ethnic Russia Regions .. everyting on other side of the big river .. Dneiper .. a natural border .. and spent the winter building massive integrated layered defence .. aka - "The Meat Grinder" in which an estimated 3-400 Ukrainians have been turned into Sausage .. for as they approach the defensive line ..it buckles in to create a cauldron .. and then all the Ukraiians get slaughtered .. 5-1, 10-1 kill ratio's are common .. which makes sense because Russia hs 10 times the artillery .. and fires 10 times the number of Shells .. targeted in by Drones .. the video from the battlefield which you can go watch on a daily basis

This is not debated .. the western propaganda show admits the offensive has been a disaster .. that Ukraine is running out of ammo .. the fact that they are running out of bodies the western media still guilty of the sin of omission :) The Press gangs running around Ukraine forcing teenagers and old men into service .. the the front line where life expectancy is measured in hours.

Ukraine is Done .. Putin previously was the one requesting negotiation .... and he warned negotiate now or things will get tougher .. and true to his word .. as he always is .. we now getting the big Middle finger .. Putin saying Ukraine gonna be lucky to keep any land .. never mind have something left to join Nato.

The counter offensive has been a massive failure .. failing to push Russia anywhere - you really have no idea what is happening on the battlefield but this is not the only Win for Putin-Russia .. Vlad is winning the more important war .. the one oblivious to - never thought of by the likes of the sheep .. and that is the economic war .. Putin a symbol of the Straw that broke the camel's back .. the economic hegemony of the world economic empire .

The west has gotten crushed by the Sanctions -- the EU more than the US. Trump was the first president in history to use the economic nuclear option .. threatening our allies and everyone else in the world to go along with his unilateral sanctions - or be locked out of the international system of payments .. the US dollar being the world reserve currency .. A "Privilege" bestowed upon us by the other nations of the world .. and the only thing keep us afloat at this stage in the game. The nations of the world came kicking and screaming but for the most part complied.

Unfortunately for Biden .. even though his sanctions were not unilateral in the West .. he pushed the Nuclear economic option button for the second time in history .. and it didn't work. China- India- Brazil - South America . the big middle finger .. Saudi Arabia now joined the BRICS .. agreeing to take other forms of payment .. killing the Petro-dollar .. and the rest of the Emirates .. and well .. we have lost the ME in general .. Even Nato Member Turkey does not do what we want ..

Russia's economy has gone into war mode .. putting out 200,000 shells per month and ramping up production ... of everything. US production is 32,000/month ... and we are not in war mode .. talk of doubling this by 2025 .. what a joke .. the rest of Nato is producing 4,000 shells per month for a grand total of 36,000 shells per month ..

"Western Sources" have Russia firing 20-40,000 shells per day ... Ukraine 2-3000 .. sans short periods of time when they get the odd shipment they ramp up to 5-6000..

In 3 months of this counter offensive .. Ukraine has not even dented the first line of defense .. never mind reach the Third line and break through and form a bridgehead .. which is what this offensive was suppose to do .. thus far a complete fail .. and now has puttered out .. relying on these sporadic terrorist attacks to keep the media headlines happy --- to which Russia then responds 10 fold .. so these terrorist attacks only hurting Ukraine.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I think the collapse of the USSR led to significant level of corruption under Yeltsin. I recall hearing a lot of stories about the "Russian Mafia," an international crime syndicate with a reputation for utter ruthlessness. Crime within Russia itself was running rampant. Poverty, destitution, and chaos reigned. Another "Time of Troubles." Putin seems to have arisen out of that morass of corruption and chaos. His government also seems more like a "mobocracy" - and definitely a kleptocracy which has cut into their ability to fight wars. I can't tell if Putin is a nationalist or just some kind of mob boss who is out of his element. If Al Capone or Lucky Luciano ever became President, what would it look like?
I recall the nineties. So many Russians flooding into Western Europe trying to find a decent life.
Also incredibly wealthy entrepreneurs that invested in Italy...and that in their own homeland were called kleptocrats, which is even worse than oligarchs.
That is why Putin is still considered the tsar...the one who nationalized industry and put kleptocrats in their place.
They love him for that.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Europeans don't do much of anything.
Except attack each other now & then.

Russia is Europe.
I imagine Russia as the Empire of the Tsar...a beacon for the European, Christian Civilization.
(what Americans dislike...I mean...it's evident Americans dislike all this stuff ;) )

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Russia is Europe.
I imagine Russia as the Empire of the Tsar...a beacon for the European, Christian Civilization.
(what Americans dislike...I mean...it's evident Americans dislike all this stuff ;) )
We (most of us) dislike Christianity using
violent conquest to invade, kill, & oppress
the vanquished.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
didn't say everyone in Russia likes him .. but he is hugely popular .. more so than Biden .. that is for sure.
That's not what I'm seeing or hearing from the Russians on the street. And Biden has nothing to do with anything. The fact that you had to interject Biden into the discussion tells me probably all I need to know about why you're so pro-Putin. And why nothing ANYONE says will make any difference to you.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That's not what I'm seeing or hearing from the Russians on the street. And Biden has nothing to do with anything. The fact that you had to interject Biden into the discussion tells me probably all I need to know about why you're so pro-Putin. And why nothing ANYONE says will make any difference to you.
If true, Putin's greater domestic popularity
than Biden's is relevant because it speaks
to Russian society.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
You ignore criticism of Putin & Russia.
You justify invasion & deaths in Ukraine.
How?
By saying USA does bad things.
Don't justify evil by pointing a finger elsewhere.

I said something completely different.
That it's the Deep State overseas that ignited the conflict by colonizing Ukraine.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
If true, Putin's greater domestic popularity
than Biden's is relevant because it speaks
to Russian society.
The problem is that we can't really know for certain how a lot of Russians feel about Putin because so many of them are afraid to say in public. Whereas people in the U. S. are not afraid to express how they feel about Biden. However, I think it's a safe bet to assume that all those poeple in Russia that are afraid to say how they feel about Putin are not feeling positive toward him, or they would not be afraid to just say so.

So from the many interviews I saw conducted by Russians, of Russians on the streets of Russia, the number of people that spoke against him (usually in carefully coded wording) and the number of people that refused to voice an opinion for fear of reprisals, did easily outnumber those who praised Putin. And I also think it's safe to say that some of those who praised Putin were being less than genuine, and were just parroting what someone important to their well-being expected them to say.

Putin does NOT appear to be especially popular among Russians. However, when people were asked what could or should be the consequence of his unpopularity (not just of Putin, but also of his war with Ukraine), the overwhelming response was that people felt there was nothing they could do. All those asked were unanimous in their presumption of impotence regarding the course and the personalities of their own government. And many even stated that they were living in what they referred to as a "monarchy", not a democracy. So they had no real say in who rules it or what those rulers do.

Sounds a lot like here.
 

Sargonski

Well-Known Member
Whataboutism again, eh.
Whenever Russia, Putin, & Christianity
are criticized, out comes criticism of USA.
and what else would you expect ? and criticism of USA is not "what-aboutism" sans in the most moronic sense

Is USA not fighting in this war and the rest of Nato ? .. What about what ? were you unaware of this fact ? .. We are talking about the war .. and you cry foul over criticism of one of the participants in this interconnected global war .. on both military - war in Ukraine and ecocnomic fronts .

You wanna cry out "Illegal War" -- how can one comment without comparison ? which is a big "Duh" on your part friend "Whataboutism" salivating gibberish what is "Whataboutism" doing in this conversation a complete fail on your part .. desperate to deflect from the reality at hand .. somehow deny what is in front of you.

Yes Brother Revo -- is an illegal war -- going by the UN rules -- inviability of national sovereignty .. unless authorized by the UN requiring at minimum full support of the Security coucil. .. . rules I Agree with .. so Yup "Illegal war" and that I and you are allowed to say.

Who is not allowed to say this is the Biden Clown -- pregending that he didn't throw out the rule book .. at which time .. I told the raging masses .. this gonna come back and bite us .. this "Do as we say - not as we do" foreign policy -- and the pundits cry NO NO NO .. Then when say .. ohh Look here .. what come .. just like I told you .. the pundits again cry NO NO NO .. Whataboutism :) har har har...

Christianity .. Listen to the Mahatma -- for he is very wise .. say ... "I like your Christ - just not ...." and hopefully you can finish the sentence. WE got ourselves a case of Religious Nationalism .. The Atheist Socialist Stalinist Got the God Bug !! Who knew and how pleasant that Brother Vlad recognizes a power greater than himself .. just like good Ol TED ... who peed the Bed .. when Donald called his names .. and his wife names too wasn't it ? har har .. some crazy stuff that Religious Nationalism .. specially when we get to making policy and law on the basis of religious belief .. now there is something we shold be against .. those Islamists .. we hate those people on this basis .. forcing religious beliefs on others via physical violence .. I am not a fan of Sharia in general .. law and policy on the basis of religious belief .. more of a secularist in that respect .. following the path that Jesus set before us .. Give to Caesar what his .. to me vat be mine. HeyZeus say don't be forcing religious beliefs on others through physical violence .. lest you wanna done to you that way

do you speak French .. that would be the golden rule .. backwards -- don't be doing to others what don wanna don you .. say Jah .. Rastafa .. why you not listen to the prophet .. hear u them words ..
 

lukethethird

unknown member
You ignore criticism of Putin & Russia.
You justify invasion & deaths in Ukraine.
How?
By saying USA does bad things.
Don't justify evil by pointing a finger elsewhere.
War mongering morons know no borders. There is plenty of criticism to go all the way around, no point confining criticism within the borders of any given country. Who doesn't believe they are on the side of humanity and fighting the good fight? Just listen to people that choose a side, the us vs them mentality, the good vs evil, you're with us or you are against us, it gets real tedious real fast. The same tired banners flown war after war, fighting for freedom and democracy, for humanitarian causes. Anyways, that's my rant for this morning, thanks for reading.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
War mongering morons know no borders. There is plenty of criticism to go all the way around, no point confining criticism within the borders of any given country. Who doesn't believe they are on the side of humanity and fighting the good fight? Just listen to people that choose a side, the us vs them mentality, the good vs evil, you're with us or you are against us, it gets real tedious real fast. The same tired banners flown war after war, fighting for freedom and democracy, for humanitarian causes. Anyways, that's my rant for this morning, thanks for reading.
A Polish can say that.
They can say that Russia is at fault. Poland has never bothered anyone.
But an American sounds really ugly, if they say the same thing.
 
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