Should Europe resist Islam?

[Caladan]

i am sorry, that's not what i meant. my bad i tried to ask how Europe would resist Islam. i mean, if your answer is yes to the original question, i would like to hear how. how's it gonna happen?



.

I do not think Europe should resist an entire religion. I think the European authorities should practice their duties in preserving what the European judicial systems need to enforce, and if I can be so dramatic to say... to resist any undermining of the Zeitgeist of European nations.

 

[Smoke]

I Love sharing what i know, and in reality everyone is preaching there belief,
or i wouldnt be here.
O Messenger, Proclaim what has been revealed to you from you'r Lord.
Qur'an 5v67.

I thought Muslims believed Muhammad was the Messenger of God; interesting to learn that it's really Amin.

 

[Caladan]

I thought Muslims believed Muhammad was the Messenger of God; interesting to learn that it's really Amin.

Now now Smoke. lets not keep pretending. we all know that the some of the greatest advocates of monotheism practice the worst kind of superstitious idolatry.

 

[Cobblestones]

Europe and America are slowly sinking into another age of superstition, but one manipulated by fast technological advances and contrived scientific theories that are replacing enlightenment with entertainment, truth with denial, and responsibility with perversion.

Come again? So, you think that things like, oh, I don't know, civil rights are not a result of enlightenment?

"Truth with denial" - about what?

"Responsibility with perversion" - how so? Or do you think that, for example, two women who choose to live together and raise children are replacing responsibility with perversion? Last time I checked, the divorce rate among "Christians" was at 60%. How is that at all responsible living?

 

[LittleNipper]

Religions should be free to practice their beliefs, as long as those beliefs do not infringe upon the rights of others.

If my religion teaches that one eyed beggars are an insult to the LORD, I do not have the religious freedom to rid the world of one eyed beggars. Nor should society grant me the right to do so.

If my religion teaches that I should scream at the top of my lungs in the middle of the street at 1am every Monday, I do not have the freedom to do so. Nor should society grant me that right.

If my religion teaches that I cannot work between the hours of 6am and 8pm on Wednesdays, I have every right to close up my shop at those times. But employers should not be forced to give me that time off.

If one wishes to live in a society where there is religious freedom, then one should expect that there will also be limitations imposed to protect the rights and security of those who do not believe as you do.

Just remember that war protestors and green peace promoters often do the exact same sort of things. One doesn't need to be worshipping GOD to be a nuisance.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Just remember that war protestors and green peace promoters often do the exact same sort of things. One doesn't need to be worshipping GOD to be a nusance.

No, but it helps.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Just remember that war protestors and green peace promoters often do the exact same sort of things. One doesn't need to be worshipping GOD to be a nusance.

First off,
I was not alluding to the worship of God as a nuisance. Only that true freedom of religion includes the rights and safety of all, including those for whom a practice affects negatively.

Secondly,
There is a big difference between peaceful protest (freedom of speech, freedom to redress the government for grievances) and religious practice (freedom of religion).
But nice attempt at a strawman anyway....

 

[Sunstone]

Anyone one who makes fun at God.

Without the right to make fun of gods, you have no freedom of religion, and without freedom of religion, you are the slaves of whichever jerk yells the most piously that you are an infidel, a heretic, or a blasphemer. Do you want to be men or slaves?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Without the right to make fun of gods, you have no freedom of religion, and without freedom of religion, you are the slaves of whichever thug yells the most piously that you are an infidel. Do you want to be men or slaves?

Would we get conjugal visits with scantily clad slave girls as slaves?

 

[LittleNipper]

No, but it helps.

Actually, I find that secular protestors & dance halls/bars are far more nasty and noisey than living next to a church.

 

[LittleNipper]

Come again? So, you think that things like, oh, I don't know, civil rights are not a result of enlightenment?

"Truth with denial" - about what?

"Responsibility with perversion" - how so? Or do you think that, for example, two women who choose to live together and raise children are replacing responsibility with perversion? Last time I checked, the divorce rate among "Christians" was at 60%. How is that at all responsible living?

I can tell you that slavery was ended by Christianity ---- nothing more and nothing less. The divorce rate is about 50%.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I can tell you that slavery was ended by Christianity ---- nothing more and nothing less.

While Wilbur Wilburforce (In Britain) and other Christians were the primary force in the Abolition Movement, so to were many secular organizations, speakers, and publications. Notably The Liberator, published by outspoken abolitionist William L. Garrison.
It should be noted that both Christian and non-Christian alike both supported and fought against the Slave Industry.

The divorce rate is about 50%.

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Variation in divorce rates by religion:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Religion[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]% have been divorced[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Jews[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]30%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Born-again Christians[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]27%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Other Christians[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]24%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Atheists, Agnostics[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT]
Food for thought.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:

[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]% who have been divorced[/FONT]​

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Non-denominational **[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]34%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Baptists[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]29%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mainline Protestants[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]25%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mormons[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]24%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Catholics[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Lutherans[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT]

 

[~Amin~]

That's right I do but what's more important is what the Qur'an is. At the basic level, it's a book. Pointing out a random quote from a part of a book that is purely metaphorical and doesn't really relate to the issue being addressed isn't exactly a great way of debating.

Im going to quickly answer this then move on, our friends are right getting
of the topic, and im sorry, i can give you many lengthy evidence from Qur'an,
and the prophets traditions, and the companions, and scholars, to show you
this is not taking it out of text, you just point me to another thread, and let me show you.

Suppose you asked me a question about, say, evolution. If I returned with a metaphorical response from a Dr. Pepper slogan, then that doesn't really help you out.

Whether this wisdom of Qur'an is understood or not depends on the
state of being of the reader.

 

[LittleNipper]

While Wilbur Wilburforce (In Britain) and other Christians were the primary force in the Abolition Movement, so to were many secular organizations, speakers, and publications. Notably The Liberator, published by outspoken abolitionist William L. Garrison.
It should be noted that both Christian and non-Christian alike both supported and fought against the Slave Industry.



[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Variation in divorce rates by religion:[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Religion[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]% have been divorced[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Jews[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]30%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Born-again Christians[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]27%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Other Christians[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]24%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Atheists, Agnostics[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT]
Food for thought.
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Variation in divorce rates among Christian faith groups:[/FONT]


[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)[/FONT]

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]% who have been divorced[/FONT]​

[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Non-denominational **[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]34%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Baptists[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]29%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mainline Protestants[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]25%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Mormons[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]24%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Catholics[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Lutherans[/FONT] [FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]21%[/FONT]

What I can tell you is that John Henry Newton (who wrote Amazing Grace)--- had been a slave trader and drunkard ---- when converted became an outspoken opponent to slavery in England among others.

In the United States, Lincoln jokingly said of Harriet Beecher Stowe (Uncle Tom's Cabin), that she single-handedly brought about the Civil War. She was also a writer of Christian hymns and had a very strong christian faith.

Clearly, there were others that aided against slavery, but it was the notion that GOD HIMSELF was not happy with slavery was one thing that most people could not argue with very affectively.

 

[tumbleweed41]

What I can tell you is that John Henry Newton (who wrote Amazing Grace)--- had been a slave trader and drunkard ---- when converted became an outspoken opponent to slavery in England among others.

In the United States, Lincoln jokingly said of Harriet Beecher Stowe (Uncle Tom's Cabin), that she single-handedly brought about the Civil War. She was also a writer of Christian hymns and had a very strong christian faith.

Clearly, there were others that aided against slavery, but it was the notion that GOD HIMSELF was not happy with slavery was one thing that most people could not argue with very affectively.

The notion of GOD was also used to defend slavery.

[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts - Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America

Every hope of the existence of church and state, and of civilization itself, hangs upon our arduous effort to defeat the doctrine of Negro suffrage - Robert Dabney, a prominent 19th century Southern Presbyterian Pastor

... the right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example - Richard Furman, President, South Carolina Baptist Convention

Your assertion that Christianity alone brought about the end of slavery is as absurd as blaming Christianity alone for the institution of slavery.

 

[Cobblestones]

I can tell you that slavery was ended by Christianity ---- nothing more and nothing less.

Better check your facts there buster. The civil war was about states' rights, not slavery. Next you'll tell me that the Civil Rights movement was a Christian concept!

The divorce rate is about 50%.

LOL! Oh! OK. Well, then that's clearly a sign that everything is hunky-dory in Christendom! Give me a break!

 

[Cobblestones]

The notion of GOD was also used to defend slavery.

Yyyyyyyyyep!

 

[YmirGF]

Yyyyyyyyyep!

If memory serves me correctly, it was seen as a god given right.

 

[kai]

I have some stats,the Muslim Council of Britain ran a Poll and the results were thus,82% said they would be loyal to Britain,89% said they want to master the English language and become more generally educated,76% said they had confidence in this Countrys judicial system which shows even the majority of British Muslims do not want Sharia (hurrah for the British Muslims at least its a step in the right direction ) and 89% said that terrorist attacks that targeted civilians cannot be morally justified.
Now from the Poll it would seem that British Muslims are happy with their Country of choice and means we must be doing something right here

I was very impressed with the poll until i looked at the methodology, they interviewed over the phone 1000 people and interviewed 500 people face to face , there are around 2 million Muslims in the UK and thy have interviewed face to face 500? how do you come to such sweeping conclusions as they do with such a small sample? and dont forget to allow the 5% error

 

[darkendless]

I was very impressed with the poll until i looked at the methodology, they interviewed over the phone 1000 people and interviewed 500 people face to face , there are around 2 million Muslims in the UK and thy have interviewed face to face 500? how do you come to such sweeping conclusions as they do with such a small sample? and dont forget to allow the 5% error

That as well as would muslims openly admit that they dislike England, i mean come on. Would you move to another country and then openly tell a surveyor that you hate the country, its laws, and its language?