Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

[djackson]

I hear you on those quotes, but I have always been of the view that the bible is just man's interpretation of events and not literal. However, if you read these from a certain point of view, they just validate my theory that the holy spirit was passed on or linked to Jesus, thus forming the unity/trinity of the godhead. I'm not saying that they became one person, but that they share the experience and memory of one person through the holy spirit. All this is moot since I am definitely an unbeliever of Christianity. I believe that Jesus may have been a most enlightened being, perhaps touched by or in touch with higher power, but I do not accept the Father-Son-Savior belief system. I do believe that his was a message of acceptance and universal love.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

I hear you on those quotes, but I have always been of the view that the bible is just man's interpretation of events and not literal.

I would say not all is literal. The book of revelations is a prime example, so I do agree with you, but I still believe there is a lot of literal information there that is just plain and simple and interpertation of those verses are not needed.

However, if you read these from a certain point of view, they just validate my theory that the holy spirit was passed on or linked to Jesus, thus forming the unity/trinity of the godhead. I'm not saying that they became one person, but that they share the experience and memory of one person through the holy spirit.

I see what you mean. There is that "oneness"...but as I've often said..."Not one in the same". Additionally, the holy spirit as decribed in the bible is not exclusive to Jesus.

Isaiah 63:11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy elohim is in thee.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit:

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying,

All this is moot since I am definitely an unbeliever of Christianity.

I hear ya....

I believe that Jesus may have been a most enlightened being, perhaps touched by or in touch with higher power, but I do not accept the Father-Son-Savior belief system. I do believe that his was a message of acceptance and universal love.

You are so right here......

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Well, there is only one God. That is a clear teaching of the Bible. I will not say there is more than one God. Thus, three persons make up the one God, for me it makes sense, if others wish to have more than one God contrary to the Bible's clear teaching, then that's fine with me, I just agree to disagree, what more can I do?

hello to all!
only one god? you sure? it is written:"and the lord said unto moses,see,i have made you a god unto pharoah." exodus 7:1
was god trying to make moses sin? or was he encouraging pharoah in polytheism which he already practice.

again it is written:" i have said" ye are GODS ; and all of you are children of the most high." psalms 82:6. could these be true are false? who would call false gods thier chidern?
madness!

one more! try this on for size if you can answer.
1corinthians 8:5,6:" for though they be those that be called gods,whether in heaven or in earth, (as THERE BE gods many, and lords many)
but to us there is but one god, the father,of whom all things are, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
pual admets it that thier are many gods. are or you saying he's lying when he said so? furthermore is he then lyin by say" but to us there is but one god?
you see, by saying the bible teaches that there is only one god, you try too deny that they are many. but thats' not true! either is it a contridiction for you would admit that moses is not a false god. or else you'll be saying god made him so.
:beach:

 

[rad_ic_ul]

Well, there is only one God. That is a clear teaching of the Bible. I will not say there is more than one God. Thus, three persons make up the one God, for me it makes sense, if others wish to have more than one God contrary to the Bible's clear teaching, then that's fine with me, I just agree to disagree, what more can I do?

hello to all!
only one god? you sure? it is written:"and the lord said unto moses,see,i have made you a god unto pharoah." exodus 7:1
was god trying to make moses sin? or was he encouraging pharoah in polytheism which he already practice.

again it is written:" i have said" ye are GODS ; and all of you are children of the most high." psalms 82:6. could these be true are false? who would call false gods thier chidern?
madness!

one more! try this on for size if you can answer.
1corinthians 8:5,6:" for though they be those that be called gods,whether in heaven or in earth, (as THERE BE gods many, and lords many)
but to us there is but one god, the father,of whom all things are, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
pual admits it that thier are many gods.or are you saying he's lying when he said so? furthermore is he then lying by say" but to us there is but one god?
you see, by saying the bible teaches that there is only one god, you try too deny that they are many. but thats' not true! neither is it a contridiction, for you would not admit that moses is not a false god. or else you'll be saying god made him so.
and what did paul mean by the underlined statement?
you tell me.
:beach:

 

[JayHawes]

This is a lost cause trying to explain such things to everyone. SOme things can only be understood overtime, or through study and revelation.

 

[JayHawes]

hello to all!
only one god? you sure? it is written:"and the lord said unto moses,see,i have made you a god unto pharoah." exodus 7:1
was god trying to make moses sin? or was he encouraging pharoah in polytheism which he already practice.

again it is written:" i have said" ye are GODS ; and all of you are children of the most high." psalms 82:6. could these be true are false? who would call false gods thier chidern?
madness!

one more! try this on for size if you can answer.
1corinthians 8:5,6:" for though they be those that be called gods,whether in heaven or in earth, (as THERE BE gods many, and lords many)
but to us there is but one god, the father,of whom all things are, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."
pual admits it that thier are many gods.or are you saying he's lying when he said so? furthermore is he then lying by say" but to us there is but one god?
you see, by saying the bible teaches that there is only one god, you try too deny that they are many. but thats' not true! neither is it a contridiction, for you would not admit that moses is not a false god. or else you'll be saying god made him so.
and what did paul mean by the underlined statement?
you tell me.
:beach:

This is an exerpt fomr my Book:

"As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.

Chapter eight of Corinthians is about things offered to idols. These idols (things living or imagined) were called gods. So in a sense these idols were and are people’s gods. Though there be gods many and lords many (for men serve other lords and gods) there is still but one God, and no more than one, at least for Christians, Jews and Muslims.
This Chapter itself has nothing to do with Christians being gods. It is fascinating how some can read into the scripture what is not there."
_________________________________________________________

Paul said that people have many gods (idols- not real). People even have gods of heaven "the sky" such as birds and fowls. However there is only one true God. Notice that Paul said that they are "called gods" not that they are gods. If you're going to quote something, quote it in context.

As for the previous you mast have a understand of what Elohim means. Elohim is a name given to God to experss his office as a judge. When applied to humans such as in Psalms 82, and to Moses, it's meaning is as expressed by the name. Moses was made a judge over the Pharoah. And the Judges of Israel are called ELOHIM "gods." They are not gods, but merely judges who represent God. Elohim is tranaslted as judges in Exodus 21:6. These judges were called Elohim, expressing the office of a judge.Pslams 82 has nothing to do with anybody being gods, it is a Psalm of condemnation of the bad judges of Israel.

 

[sojourner]

Elohim is clearly plural and refers to the "heavenly court." The early OT clearly expresses a henotheistic perspective and not a monotheistic perspective.

 

[michel]

I think that's an excellent analogy, actually. That they speak with "one voice" is what's important. You could also say that they are of "one mind and heart." I see these phrases (one voice, one mind, one heart) as references to a spiritual unity and not a physical unity. In fact, the statement "You never know which is going to answer," implies a plurality of some kind.

I have opted for "Fact", and yes, I agree that that is an excellent analogy. I have done a lot of meditating/prayer trying to understand or maybe confirm my beliefs about the Trinity - and from what I believe I felt, I have no personal doubt that the Trinity is fact.

 

[Mr. Hair]

Trinity - Fact or Fiction?

Neither, and yet I suspect there are elements of both; it's mythological.

If one goes by scripture alone as authority,

Ahhh, but scripture is never 'alone', it is always defined by imparted context and interprated via subjective concepts.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

This is a lost cause trying to explain such things to everyone. SOme things can only be understood overtime, or through study and revelation.

Are you claiming that you have reached that point and the others who disagree with you have not? Even if over time they have studied and thus the scriptures have revealed trinity to be a man made doctrine?

 

[JayHawes]

Elohim is clearly plural and refers to the "heavenly court." The early OT clearly expresses a henotheistic perspective and not a monotheistic perspective.

There is one God who sits in the Congregation of Heavenly Judges.

 

[JayHawes]

Are you claiming that you have reached that point and the others who disagree with you have not? Even if over time they have studied and thus the scriptures have revealed trinity to be a man made doctrine?

Who am I to jduge President Bush? Do I actually know him? Do I know exactaly who he is and how he acts in his own household? Do I know his reasons for making the decisions he has made? Of course not, I dont actually know him.

The same applies here. It is a lost cause for someone who does not know someone to then try and judge them to the point to try to tell someone else about somebody that they do not know. One must know God, the true God, before they can explain him. No unbeliever can explain God, if they do not know him.

 

[love]

Why do we put limits on God? God is infinite. He chose to walk among us as a man thou men did not know Him. The demons knew Him and fled. He was the most powerful man the world has ever known but He used His power to touch the hearts of men. Where ever He went sorrow and pain and disease fled. He endured everything the men blinded by the power of a self righteous religion could do to Him even unto death. He set us free and promised not to leave us. His Holy Spirit is as prevalent as the air we breath.
Father (God) Son (God) Holy Spirit (God).

 

[rad_ic_ul]

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.

Chapter eight of Corinthians is about things offered to idols. These idols (things living or imagined) were called gods. So in a sense these idols were and are people’s gods. Though there be gods many and lords many (for men serve other lords and gods) there is still but one God, and no more than one, at least for Christians, Jews and Muslims.
This Chapter itself has nothing to do with Christians being gods. It is fascinating how some can read into the scripture what is not there."

either they are gods or there are not?
I never said anything about Christians being gods.
“though there BE gods many“? Doesn’t that tell you something?
How could there BE gods if their not gods?
What does it mean to BE? Not exist?
________________________________________________ _______

Paul said that people have many gods (idols- not real). People even have gods of heaven "the sky" such as birds and fowls. However there is only one true God. Notice that Paul said that they are "called gods" not that they are gods. If you're going to quote something, quote it in context.

Paul wasn’t talking about false gods when he said that they “BE gods many” for when he said that there be many that “be called gods” he meant idols for idols are not gods. So could he say that idols are gods?
But Paul did say they are gods. He said:“ there BE gods many”.
Being called gods by people of the pagans, and there being gods, are two different things. Paul would not call them gods if there weren’t gods. Paul under inspiration calls them gods. Who are you to say there are not?

As for the previous you mast have a understand of what Elohim means. Elohim is a name given to God to express his office as a judge. When applied to humans such as in Psalms 82, and to Moses, it's meaning is as expressed by the name. Moses was made a judge over the Pharaoh. And the Judges of Israel are called ELOHIM "gods."
If it means that, why isn’t it translated that way? That is misleading!
As for exodus 7:1 the word there is the word for GOD ` elo· him´ (Hebrew) the Greek is the• on¢ . The Hebrew word for judge is Sapat, Gen 18:25, “the lord therefore be judge(sapat) and judge between me and thee, and see, and plead my cause, and deliver me out of thine hand”(1 sam 24:15).
You say ”They are not gods, but merely judges who represent God.”
The bible says: “ye ARE gods” John 10:34.
Now Jesus was quoting this text in defence of the charge by the Jews, of making himself GOD (a god). Why quote it if it is not talking about gods at all? What would be the point?
John 10:34 literal translation is “answered to them the Jesus not is it having been written in the law of you that I said gods you are?”
The words ‘gods you are’ goes as follows: the· oi gods, e· ste you are.
The word for judge(s) was not used.
Elohim is translated as judges in Exodus 21:6.
Really? The word ha· ’Elo· him is what accurses there and means ‘the true god’ not judges. The word for judges is sapat. ’ elohim is the word for god. It is not the word for judges.
Again you say that
“These judges were called Elohim, expressing the office of a judge. Psalms 82 has nothing to do with anybody being gods”. The text as it is in Hebrew says gods. Who am I to believe? The text as the Hebrew word for gods is there or you?
Today 04:05 AM JayHawes This is a lost cause trying to explain such things to everyone. Some things can only be understood overtime, or through study and revelation.
“These things can only be explained over time”!
Well explain this over time! How is it that the Masoretic text contains ha elohim hundreds of times and scholars translate it “the one true God”. e.g. ZorellHeb, p. 54, says: “In the Holy Scriptures especially the one true God, Jahve, is designated by this word; a) האלהים ο θεός Ge 5:22; 6:9, 11; 17:18; 20:6; Ex 3:12; 19:17 and in several books written in prose; האלהים הוא יהוה ‘Jahve is the [one true] God’ De 4:35; 4:39; Jos 22:34; 2Sa 7:28; 1Ki 8:60 etc.”—Brackets his.
Zorellheb means lexicon hebraicum et amaraicium vesteris testementi, by F. Zorell, Rome, 1968.
And after all that you still have not answered my question.
Do you consider Paul a liar by saying that they are many gods?
Or does he lie by saying “but to us there is but one God”?
If I ask you how many gods they are would you say they “BE gods many”?
It is ridiculous to think that because God said “ I know none”, that there can be no others and the bible must contradict itself if it doesn’t agree with your, or fit into your doctrine.
What a sad! Sad! Sorry.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The same applies here. It is a lost cause for someone who does not know someone to then try and judge them to the point to try to tell someone else about somebody that they do not know.

I agree

One must know God, the true God, before they can explain him. No unbeliever can explain God, if they do not know him.

So those who profess trinity know God and everyone else are blind to this supposed truth?

That is why I asked the question. In this case we are not trying to necessarily explain "God". The God I speaking of is the God of the OT, of Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus....etc.....

In this case the OP is asking trinity is it fact or fiction and as we scrutanize the scripture and the trinity concept it is revealed to be man made.

 

[dreece]

hello J Hawes
I think you better take things in context

As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" 1 Corinthians 8:4-6.

Chapter eight of Corinthians is about things offered to idols. These idols (things living or imagined) were called gods. So in a sense these idols were and are people’s gods. Though there be gods many and lords many (for men serve other lords and gods) there is still but one God, and no more than one, at least for Christians, Jews and Muslims.
This Chapter itself has nothing to do with Christians being gods. It is fascinating how some can read into the scripture what is not there."
You seem to take verse 6 to mean that if we only have one God, then no others are truly gods, but are false. This is a very inconsistent and weak argument considering that that same verse describes Jesus as our one Lord. So were the two angels who went to Lot FALSE lords, or did Lot mistake them for Jesus? Gen 19:2 Was Abraham’s servant a FALSE lord, or did Rebecca mistake him for Jesus? Gen 24:18 Was Abraham a lord or not? 1 Pet 3:6; Gen 23:6, 11, 15. What about Laban? Gen 31:35.
So if there can be other lords who are [not false, but] genuine lords in addition to the one Lord Jesus Christ, there can be others who truly are gods beside the one God Jehovah. Just as the lordship of Jesus is in a different class from that of other lords, it doesn’t mean that the others are not truly lords, does it? A similar comment could be made about the Father’s Godship being in a class different to that of other gods; but it doesn’t refute that they truly are other gods anymore than it refutes that they are many lords!
________________________________________________ _______

Paul said that people have many gods (idols- not real). People even have gods of heaven "the sky" such as birds and fowls. However there is only one true God. Notice that Paul said that they are "called gods" not that they are gods. If you're going to quote something, quote it in context.
Actually, Paul did say that “they ARE gods”: “hosper [even-as] eisin [ARE] theoi [gods] polloi [many]!”
I am wondering how you got idols in the “sky.” Are there carved statues in the sky? Since when did birds become idols? When you see a dove flying through the air, I’m sure you don’t say: “Look! There goes an idol.” In fact, the Bible says that idols ‘cannot speak, cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot feel, cannot walk, and can utter no speech with their throat,” yet you have that they can fly in heaven? Ps 15:4-7. Birds and fowl can do all these things, hence, these certainly are not the idols you claim Paul was talking about! The chapter doesn’t even mention fowl and birds, so it is YOU that needs to take things in context, ok?
And what is it in this context that tells you that Paul meant “the sky” anyway? Paul said “heaven“, not “the sky,” so if you want to interpret it as the bright blue sky where the airplanes and birds fly, you must have some justification from the CONTEXT to support it. [ie Gen 1:20 tells of birds flying in the heavens, thus we have contextual reason for saying that this ‘heaven’ is the sky; can you bring CONTEXTUAL reasons for saying so at 1 Cor 8:5?]

As for the previous you mast have a understand of what Elohim means. Elohim is a name given to God to experss his office as a judge.
. In A Dictionary of the Bible, William Smith says: “The fanciful idea that [’elo·him´] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”
The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures says of ’elo·him´: “It is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute.” To illustrate this, the title ’elo·him´ appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what God said and did is singular. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) Thus, that publication concludes: “[’Elo·him´] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.”
’Elo·him´ means, not “persons,” but “gods.” So those who argue that this word implies a Trinity make themselves polytheists, worshipers of more than one God. Why? Because it would mean that there were three gods in the Trinity. But nearly all Trinity supporters reject the view that the Trinity is made up of three separate gods.
The Bible also uses the words ’elo·him´ and ’elo·heh´ when referring to a number of false idol gods. (Exodus 12:12; 20:23) But at other times it may refer to just a single false god, as when the Philistines referred to “Dagon their god [’elo·heh´].” (Judges 16:23, 24) Baal is called “a god [’elo·him´].” (1 Kings 18:27) In addition, the term is used for humans. (Psalm 82:1, 6) Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” [’elo·him´] to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Exodus 4:16; 7:1.
Obviously, using the titles ’elo·him´ and ’elo·heh´ for false gods, and even humans, did not imply that each was a plurality of gods; neither does applying ’elo·him´ or ’elo·heh´ to Jehovah mean that he is more than one person, especially when we consider the testimony of the rest of the Bible on this subject.
Also, Vine’s Epository Dictionary of Old and NT Words gives “the plural of majesty” as its definition of elohim;
from what source do you derive “the office of judge” as a definition of elohim? I’d be interested in seeing your reference for that! I gave you mine.
When applied to humans such as in Psalms 82, and to Moses, it's meaning is as expressed by the name. Moses was made a judge over the Pharoah.

Where is it written that Moses JUDGED Pharoah? Again, where is your evidence that elohim means to be judge? The angels are called elohim in the Hebrew text of Ps 8:5; are the angels judges? Whom do they judge? Elohim means God/gods; it was Jehovah who called them gods at Ps 8:5, not human worshippers, so if God calls them gods, they are gods. Case closed.
And the Judges of Israel are called ELOHIM "gods." They are not gods, but merely judges who represent God.
“I MYSELF [God] have said, ’You ARE gods, and all of you ARE sons of the Most High’.” So if you deny that they are gods, maybe you deny that they are sons of the Most High!
It was Jehovah who called them gods, and I tend to believe Jehovah. Jehovah said to Eve “you will positively die,” Satan said “you positively will not die.” Gen 2:17; 3:4. Jehovah said “you ARE gods,” JayHawes said “they ARE NOT gods,” who am I to believe? I’ll go with Jehovah!
Elohim is tranaslted as judges in Exodus 21:6. These judges were called Elohim, expressing the office of a judge. Pslams 82 has nothing to do with anybody being gods,
Guess you don’t think it has anything to do with anybody being sons of the Most High either, even though God said it. YOUR translators chose to render elohim as gods in Ps 82:1, 6. Are you disagreeing with your own translation of the Bible?
My Bible has “God” [elohim] at Exo 21:6, not judges. What proof did your translators give for changing the meaning from “god, gods” to “judges”? In any case, they aren’t being consistent! Maybe they should have written that “In the beginning judges created the heavens and the earth” Gen 1:1 to be consistent with this theory; but then again, you are the one arguing that elohim means judges at Ps 82. Your own Scholars have not so translated it; they rendered it as what they think it means, and the word they used is “gods”! So again; if you want to deny that it means gods at Ps 82:1, 6, you are denying a plain Biblical statement.
If he calls them gods when they are not gods, then God is lying. When he calls them sons of the Most High, he surely meant what he said, or was he joking there as well? I accept BOTH statements; I don’t pick and choose which parts of God’s word to believe!
it is a Psalm of condemnation of the bad judges of Israel. Today 04:05 AM JayHawes This is a lost cause trying to explain such things to everyone. SOme things can only be understood overtime, or through study and revelation.
Gonna take me OVERTIME to figure out how you can reason that way with a straight face! If God says “ye ARE gods,” then ye ARE gods! It’s a lost cause trying to explain what couldn’t be stated anymore clearly.
Question though; if they really were gods, how much plainer would you have said it?

 

[JayHawes]

I agree




So those who profess trinity know God and everyone else are blind to this supposed truth?

That is why I asked the question. In this case we are not trying to necessarily explain "God". The God I speaking of is the God of the OT, of Adam, Moses, Abraham, Jesus....etc.....

In this case the OP is asking trinity is it fact or fiction and as we scrutanize the scripture and the trinity concept it is revealed to be man made.

The New Testament is not the only place where the trinity is concieved in scripture, but also in the old testament.

God the Father in OT:

De 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Isa 63:16"Doubtless thou art our father...thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."

God the Son in the OT:

"Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him" Pslams 2:11,12

The "Anointed One" in verse 2 is called the "Son" in verse 12.
Both Jewish and Christian scholars say this Psalm speaks of the Messiah.
God's works are applied to "the Son" (comp. Psalms 24:1–2; Job 34:24;
(above from Wiki)

God the Holy Spirit in the OT:

Job 33:4 "The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life"

Ps 104:30 "Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth"

1sa 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them"

 

[JayHawes]

hello J Hawes
I think you better take things in context
________________________________________________ _______

As for the previous you mast have a understand of what Elohim means. Elohim is a name given to God to experss his office as a judge.
. In A Dictionary of the Bible, William Smith says: “The fanciful idea that [’elo·him´] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”
The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures says of ’elo·him´: “It is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute.” To illustrate this, the title ’elo·him´ appears 35 times by itself in the account of creation, and every time the verb describing what God said and did is singular. (Genesis 1:1–2:4) Thus, that publication concludes: “[’Elo·him´] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.”
’Elo·him´ means, not “persons,” but “gods.” So those who argue that this word implies a Trinity make themselves polytheists, worshipers of more than one God. Why? Because it would mean that there were three gods in the Trinity. But nearly all Trinity supporters reject the view that the Trinity is made up of three separate gods.
The Bible also uses the words ’elo·him´ and ’elo·heh´ when referring to a number of false idol gods. (Exodus 12:12; 20:23) But at other times it may refer to just a single false god, as when the Philistines referred to “Dagon their god [’elo·heh´].” (Judges 16:23, 24) Baal is called “a god [’elo·him´].” (1 Kings 18:27) In addition, the term is used for humans. (Psalm 82:1, 6) Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” [’elo·him´] to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Exodus 4:16; 7:1.
Obviously, using the titles ’elo·him´ and ’elo·heh´ for false gods, and even humans, did not imply that each was a plurality of gods; neither does applying ’elo·him´ or ’elo·heh´ to Jehovah mean that he is more than one person, especially when we consider the testimony of the rest of the Bible on this subject.
Also, Vine’s Epository Dictionary of Old and NT Words gives “the plural of majesty” as its definition of elohim;
from what source do you derive “the office of judge” as a definition of elohim? I’d be interested in seeing your reference for that! I gave you mine.
When applied to humans such as in Psalms 82, and to Moses, it's meaning is as expressed by the name. Moses was made a judge over the Pharoah.

Where is it written that Moses JUDGED Pharoah? Again, where is your evidence that elohim means to be judge? The angels are called elohim in the Hebrew text of Ps 8:5; are the angels judges? Whom do they judge? Elohim means God/gods; it was Jehovah who called them gods at Ps 8:5, not human worshippers, so if God calls them gods, they are gods. Case closed.
And the Judges of Israel are called ELOHIM "gods." They are not gods, but merely judges who represent God.
“I MYSELF [God] have said, ’You ARE gods, and all of you ARE sons of the Most High’.” So if you deny that they are gods, maybe you deny that they are sons of the Most High!
It was Jehovah who called them gods, and I tend to believe Jehovah. Jehovah said to Eve “you will positively die,” Satan said “you positively will not die.” Gen 2:17; 3:4. Jehovah said “you ARE gods,” JayHawes said “they ARE NOT gods,” who am I to believe? I’ll go with Jehovah!
Elohim is tranaslted as judges in Exodus 21:6. These judges were called Elohim, expressing the office of a judge. Pslams 82 has nothing to do with anybody being gods,
Guess you don’t think it has anything to do with anybody being sons of the Most High either, even though God said it. YOUR translators chose to render elohim as gods in Ps 82:1, 6. Are you disagreeing with your own translation of the Bible?
My Bible has “God” [elohim] at Exo 21:6, not judges. What proof did your translators give for changing the meaning from “god, gods” to “judges”? In any case, they aren’t being consistent! Maybe they should have written that “In the beginning judges created the heavens and the earth” Gen 1:1 to be consistent with this theory; but then again, you are the one arguing that elohim means judges at Ps 82. Your own Scholars have not so translated it; they rendered it as what they think it means, and the word they used is “gods”! So again; if you want to deny that it means gods at Ps 82:1, 6, you are denying a plain Biblical statement.
If he calls them gods when they are not gods, then God is lying. When he calls them sons of the Most High, he surely meant what he said, or was he joking there as well? I accept BOTH statements; I don’t pick and choose which parts of God’s word to believe!
it is a Psalm of condemnation of the bad judges of Israel. Today 04:05 AM JayHawes This is a lost cause trying to explain such things to everyone. SOme things can only be understood overtime, or through study and revelation.
Gonna take me OVERTIME to figure out how you can reason that way with a straight face! If God says “ye ARE gods,” then ye ARE gods! It’s a lost cause trying to explain what couldn’t be stated anymore clearly.
Question though; if they really were gods, how much plainer would you have said it?

Alot of people are ignorant of the meanings of Elohim when applied to humans. The following is the hebrew definition of elohim:

[SIZE=+1]~yhla [/SIZE]'elohiym (el-o-heem'); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 430

1. (plural)
   1. rulers, judges
   2. divine ones
   3. angels
   4. gods
2. (plural intensive - singular meaning)
   1. god, goddess
   2. godlike one
   3. works or special possessions of God
   4. the (true) God
   5. God

God called these men in Psalms elohim, not gods (in the original hebrew). Elohim when applied to humans is understood to mean judges as in Exodus 21:6, when the word judges is actually a translaton of elohim.

Ex 21:6Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (elohim); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Just as in Exodus 7:1

Ex 7:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god (elohim) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

Moses fuctioned as a judge over the Egyptian people, and Pharaoh.


1) There are idols of creatures of the sky, if you had a knowledge of actual wroship in the 1st Century you'll uinderstand that many idols were idols of creatures of nature

Ro 1:25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

The New Testament is not the only place where the trinity is concieved in scripture, but also in the old testament.

God the Father in OT:

De 32:6 Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Isa 63:16"Doubtless thou art our father...thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting."

Where in the world do you see trinity in ths? You are pasting, possibly, a KJV quoted bible here. The words there "the lord" is is not talking about Jesus. Your highlighting This is a weak interpertation. This also contradicts jewish teahings.

King James' translators put emphasis on english words that do not exist in hebrew....such as capitalization....Another example would be (Son of God).....this does not exist in hebrew...it is simply son of God.

God the Son in the OT:

"Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him" Pslams 2:11,12

The "Anointed One" in verse 2 is called the "Son" in verse 12.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with Jesus. This is all about King David. Nice try though. You do get a gold star for effort. None of the Psalms have anything to do with Jesus.

Psalms 89:20
I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:

Again, Psalms has nothing to do with Jesus. So again, this demostration has failed to prove trinity using the OT.

God the Holy Spirit in the OT:
Job 33:4 "The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life"

Ps 104:30 "Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth"

1sa 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them"

Well, I certainly have not denied the "spirit of God" existing in the OT or the NT. But again, none of this proves trinity.

 

[Ronald]

Another trinity thread! What is surprising is the poll results, more who know the truth. LOL

Repeat; God is invisable(like the invisable man from old time TV, you could see him when he put on his overcoat)God is a "spirit" a "Holy Spirit". Yeshua/Jesus is the "second Adam" the image of God, sent into the world to save the world, sent by God, God is your salvation/Yeshua/Jesus, but salvation/Yeshua/Jesus is not God. The Torah is the word of God, Torah created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, nothing was made that Torah did not make. Torah became flesh and dwelt among us, Torah was the first-born of all creation, Torah is the word of God. Torah/Yeshua/Jesus is the "Word."
God is "Eternal", Jesus was not, he died! God raised him and now he is eternal and those who are elected/chosen will become as he is at the end of the age/aionios/day of the Lord.