firedragon
Veteran Member
Well. Maybe you are right.
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Why aren’t we learning?
- Thread starter loverofhumanity
- Start date
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Sounds pretty good, doesn't it. When I first heard it 50 years ago, I thought so. Until I learned a little about the other religions.
Baha'is define a manifestation as a part divine being and part human. They are said to be perfect reflections of God... of the one true God.
Since this teaching from their prophet has supposedly come from the one true God, it is believed by Baha'is to be the exact and absolute truth.
I question them about that, because of who they put on that list. Four people from the Jewish Bible? And were any of them "perfect" reflections of God? Assuming the stories about them in the Bible are true, none of them were "perfect". Especially Adam, he screwed up and got cursed by God. But even Noah and Abraham sure seemed like ordinary men. Yet, God used them. Same with Moses, but he comes the closest to fitting the Baha'i definition of a manifestation.
Then the Buddha? It's about getting enlightened. It's about breaking the cycle of rebirth.
But then they add Krishna? I don't think there's is any mention by the Baha'i prophet, Baha'u'llah, about Krishna. Later, his son, Abdul Baha' mentions him. But why only Krishna? The Hindu sect that believes in Krishna has several other "incarnations" of Vishnu. Why don't the Baha'is include them?
But then the belief is that is an incarnation of Vishnu or that Krishna is himself a God. And then there is reincarnation. The teachings don't line up with the teachings of the Abrahamic religions.
These things don't seem to bother Baha'is. But I can see why. There focus is on the unity of all religions. They don't want to focus on the differences. And they have ways to explain away the differences. Like with reincarnation... it's a misinterpretation. People misunderstood the teachings of Krishna.
It works for them, but it doesn't work for me. I'm perfectly fine with all the different religions being the reflection of the people and culture they evolved from. And I do believe religions evolve. Which is a lot different than what Baha'is believe... that they were all in a progression... implying they were all closely relating and in fact, Baha'is claim they all taught the same spiritual truths.
Like I said, it works for them, and they believe it is the truth from God. I just don't believe it. This thread is about learning. But why don't some people learn? Maybe it's because they don't want to. They have a truth, and they don't want to learn things that might challenge those beliefs. And that's a good way to be... if what they believe is right.
In Israel Judaism, Christianity and Islam have come together in the physical sense of the word. It had an influence on peace in the sense of violently disturbing it in my view.
If by coming together you simply mean merging then why not merge into Judaism for example. All religions could practice Jewish law or Muslim law or Christian law. No need for Baha'i law in that case as I see it.
Or we could all come together on laws based on avoidance of demonstrable harms as opposed to allegedly divine dictates in my view.
Why not think of it as there being many songs, do you listen to a gospel record and something by Eminem and shrug it off as all one song? Or do you note the contradictions and differences and account them as more than one song?
Personally I believe the later (thinking of it as being many songs) is closer to being realistic, and the same for religions which have diverse characteristics reflecting the numerous minds that generated them.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Try to tell that to a Christian.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Religions do not work for peace. Abrahmic religions are engaged in brand wars. It is like Cocacola and Pepsi. Who is more successful in the market?
Emotions, imo. Folks allow emotion to override reason. We remain victims to our feelings.
Our feelings are our feedback system to what is good and bad. It worked well enough to get us here but not much beyond that.
As long as we depend on our feelings more than logic and reason I doubt we will be making much progress.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Ah, but Baha'is believe that God keeps changing the social laws to fit the needs of the times. Like stoning people was the right thing to do in ancient times, but now God has eased up on things. Like with adultery, why stone them to death when you can have them pay a fine? That way we have a guaranteed income coming in.
You're not alone in your thinking but I wonder why be on a religious forum instead of a non-religious forum _______
The spiritual truth (Bible truth) is what Adam lost for us Jesus regained for us
From paradisical Eden lost to a coming paradisical Earth regained because of Jesus
Everlasting life on Earth lost to everlasting eternal life on Earth regained with the coming 1000 year reign of Jesus over Earth
Mankind's long history has proven religions do not work for peace ( world peace )
True, there were OT wars backed by God but that ALL ended with Messiah's coming
Jesus taught to lay down the sword (Matt. 26:52) No longer fleshly carnal warfare for Christians - see 2nd Corinthians 10:3-4
Christian armor is: spiritual armor - Ephesians 6:11-17
Remember: Jesus forewarned us that MANY would come in his name but prove false - Matt. 7:21-23
So, it is false clergy who back modern-day wars and Not the genuine followers of Christ Jesus
Yes, in Scripture we find Jesus did Not depend on feelings but used logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures for his teachings.
So, it would seem to me that Jesus agrees with you about why there won't be the making of much progress.
Since man's long history shows: man has dominated man to man's hurt, man's injury then man can't establish world peace. - Ecc. 8:9
Jesus stressed that only through God's Kingdom government coming (Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14) can Peace on Earth happen.
This is a reason why we are all invited to pray to God for Jesus to come ! - Rev. 22:20
Come and establish a thousand years of Peace on Earth followed by everlasting global Peace on Earth - Rev. 20:3,7
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, none of what you believe is the Bible truth. It is what you interpreted the Bible to mean.
Jesus died for the sins of humanity, but Jesus never said that He died for any original sin of Adam and Eve committed in the Garden of Eden. That is a church doctrine, plain and simple.
A paradisical Earth like the Garden of Eden is not going to be regained. The Bible doesn't say that. That is only what you have been led to believe by a your interpretation of certain Bible verses, a doctrine which is taught by your church. I understand that you 'want' to live forever on Earth but wanting something is not going to make it happen.
There will never be everlasting life on Earth since our physical body is mortal this it will never be able to live forever on earth. That is what the Bible actually says (1 cor 15). What you believe is a doctrine of your church. All other Christians believe correctly, that they are going to heaven after they die, because that is what the Bible says.
1 Corinthians 15
New International Version
42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[h]
We have progressed significantly! There has never been a better time socially! Human rights are advancing. Equal rights are a thing. Men and women are equal. Slavery is significantly reduced. People eat better than the kings of old. We have clean water. We have modern plumbing. We’ve eliminated many diseases. The list goes on and on. So many people and the media would have you believe we live in terrible times. Truth is, things have never been better!
It's kind of odd too, Baha'i say it is like a physician not being able to provide the same prescription for high blood pressure as for low blood pressure, but in this case the alleged "symptom" of homosexuality is the same so why the different treatment?
I can semi understand why in pre-money societies such as may have been faced by Abraham there may have been no concept of a financial penalty, and unfortunately all I could find on the history of fines was behind pay walls, but surely once taxation was invented the only thing preventing the imposition of fines was the inability of humans to think up the idea which is a limitation that shouldn't apply to an All-knowing being as far as I'm aware.
Here is Wikipedia on the history of taxation;
'The first known system of taxation was in Ancient Egypt around 3000–2800 BC, in the First Dynasty of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.[3] The earliest and most widespread forms of taxation were the corvée and the tithe. The corvée was forced labor provided to the state by peasants too poor to pay other forms of taxation (labor in ancient Egyptian is a synonym for taxes).[33] Records from the time document that the Pharaoh would conduct a biennial tour of the kingdom, collecting tithes from the people. Other records are granary receipts on limestone flakes and papyrus.[34] Early taxation is also described in the Bible. In Genesis (chapter 47, verse 24 – the New International Version), it states "But when the crop comes in, give a fifth of it to Pharaoh.'
Source: Tax - Wikipedia
This to my mind raises questions about why the law of stoning would have been applied in Moses time, abolished entirely in Jesus time, and then either reimposed in the time of Muhammad (or replaced by flogging) just to be replaced by a fine in the time of Baha'u'llah?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
This is because Abrahamic God does not know what he is doing, but just stumbles on. Face Jerusalem at one time, face Mecca at other times.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Exactly. That's why I don't believe the Baha'is when they say that God had this thing called "progressive revelation." It's not progressive at all. It's all over the place. That's why I tell them that to me, it looks like religions evolve. Good ideas, things that work are kept. Old beliefs and practices that don't work, get dumped and replaced.
Making people believe they were all hopeless sinners that the "works" of the law could not save them... that they needed Jesus worked and, for some, is still working. Islam and the Baha'is brought back the "laws of God" method. But how well does that method work? No matter if you stone the people to death, flog them, or fine them... they keep breaking the laws.
So, I wonder, how will the Baha'i "new world order" with their Universal House of Justice and all their other governing bodies keep peace and unity if the people don't all obey "God's" laws? They're still going to need people policing and enforcing the laws. And fining and what... will Baha'i imprison people? I know what they will do with thieves... after three offences, tattoo them and kick them out of the city. Good place for them, out in the country. As if there's nothing to steal out there.
I really don't know about their solutions. Solutions they say came from an all-knowing God. Should I just believe them and trust them that they'll work? After all, they tell me God knows best.
I can see you have given a lot of thought and an inquiring mind wants to know.
Chapter 15 of 1st Cor. is addressed to: Jesus' ' brothers ' and so is Matthew 25:40, and 1st Cor. 15:50
The 'sheep' of Matthew 25:37 are Not the ' brothers '.
The ' brothers' are the ones who have a first or earlier resurrection - Rev. 20:6
The ' brothers' govern in Heaven with Jesus over Earth for a thousand years - Rev. 5:9-10; 1:6
There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies - 1st Cor. 15:40
Adam (earthly body) was told he could live forever if he kept the law of Genesis 2:17
I find Romans 5:12 is in harmony with Gen. 2:17 besides 1st Cor. 15:21
Earth was Not meant to be a stepping stone to heavenly life where the angels already were and are. (angels are Not saints )
Jesus has a ' small flock ', so to speak, like the people found at Luke 22:28-30 who are called to heavenly life - Luke 12:32; Dan. 7:22, 27
Jesus also has ' other sheep ' that are Not of the heavenly fold - John 10:16
These ' other sheep ' are the humble meek who will inherit the Earth as promised at Matt. 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11; 22:26
I find there is a BIG difference between: the righteous, unrighteous and saints/holy ones - Daniel 7:18
Earthly resurrection is for the righteous and unrighteous (Just and unjust KJV) - Acts 24:15 aka ' other sheep '
Those called to heavenly life (Luke 22:28-30) are called as saints or holy ones aka the ' little flock '
Remember: there is No death in Heaven. No one goes to Heaven to die in Heaven. Death is an earthly problem
So, " Death is swallowed up in victory " is when 'enemy death' is No more on Earth - 1st. Cor. 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Interesting. Wars. Hmm. I agree. Not just wars with guns, but wars with ideas. When, do you think that people will stop trying to attack each other's religions? What are the qualities, ingredients ( like a recipe ), which will produce a sort of lasting peace where ideas can co-exist harmoniously without being hostile to one another.
I vote: compromise. That's the most important ingredient which is missing from the World Community, imo. If so, the question I'm asking is, what are the steps which lead to compromise?
You present some very interesting points ^above^ but that does Not change today's spiritual and moral concerns.
Bible focus is on spiritual and moral concerns besides any advancing progress in the world to eliminate war, crime, poverty, sickness......
The world's facade is like a business going bankrupt with a going out of business sale meaning what appears to be progress is really now holding on hanging on by a thread