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Why Doesn't the World Call on Hamas to Surrender?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
It seems to me from the above that your viewpoint has little to no room for someone to sympathize or empathize with Palestinians

Of course it leaves room for sympathy. Whether or not that is visible is a function of "open-mindedness".

If anything, it underlines why I find it pointless to try to have any kind of productive or reasonable discussion with you about the subject.

If you had facts or any refutation of what I have written, you would have brought them. All that's left is making excuses for what you are lacking.

Feel free to have the last word, since I'm content to simply scroll past

I think that is a great idea. You do not seem to be prepared, willing, or able to participate in this thread. You entered this discussion due to a difficulty with reading comprehension. Perhaps those sort of problems do not warrant any reply at all. Just move on, and accept that you are not able to understand.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don't have Palestinian heritage

Then why do you take umbrage with my reply?

vitriolic attempt

Vitrolic: filled with bitter criticism or malice

Mr. DebateSlayer, you seem to be having trouble with reading comprehension. Again. I wrote about perception and how anticipation and expecation are shaping it. There is nothing bitter, or malicious in anything I wrote. The most likely cause of your miscomprehension, again, are your own expectations and anticipations.

Honest question: Are you OK right now? I agree, most certainly, for your well-being, avoiding this subject is in your best interests.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@icehorse ,

Perhaps add to the list of answers to your question: Warped perceptions which are being shaped by the individual's anticipation and expectation.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
We are all that individual. It's a matter of mind. Like human intuition.

The question is superfluous.

Which question?

Eta: Apologies, I'm multitasking. I think I understand what you mean.

I agree, 100%. That's why there is no good reason to take offense at what I wrote. Everyone's perception, especially vision, including myself is being shaped by expectations and anticipation. Yes. But, this does not prohibit objective fact. Do you agree?

As I mentioned, the darmic practitioners report there is an opportunity for clear perception. I do not practice that religion, instead I do it the hard way. My conclusions are developed from research and case-by-case evaluation. When I do that, the Palestinian stories told by Hamas and parroted by their allies are overwhelmingly false and the state of Israel is doing the right thing.

Those who are opposed to Israel and are pro-palestinian ( including my fellow Jews ) do not use facts or case-by-case evaluation to develop their conclusions. They rely on emotive arguments telling sob stories and demonizing those who disagree.

A rational fact based argument always defeats the emotive plea when they are in opposition. Certain facts are indisputable. For example: few are aware or keep in mind that the Palestinians sold their land to the Jewish immigrants who later became the State of Israel. Then, after taking their money, they attacked attempting to reclaim the land which was legally sold. In fact the land sales are still occuring. Palestinians are still selling their land. But Hamas and their allies continue to lie claiming the land is stolen.

Another example is the "settler" issue. Few are aware or keep in mind that the prohibition on development of "Area C" in the West Bank is conditional. The 2nd Oslo accords designated that land as Palestine if, Big If, Palestine ceased their unjust war against Israel. Palestine broke their treaty again. Area C is no longer protected as a direct consequence of Palestine breaking the truce.

All of this is verifiable objective fact.
 
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LadyJane

Member
Which question?
The one you thought you were answering. The title of the thread. A question that implies the majority of the world doesn't denounce terrorism.

This isn't child's play. Calling "Olly Olly Oxen Free! Come out come out wherever you are" would be about as successful as bombing your way to peace.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The one you thought you were answering. The title of the thread. A question that implies the majority of the world doesn't denounce terrorism.

This isn't child's play. Calling "Olly Olly Oxen Free! Come out come out wherever you are" would be about as successful as bombing your way to peace.

Yes, I understand now. Sorry for my confusion.

I hear you. The bombs are not making peace. The bombs are creating a safe space for the search and rescue operation. Hamas had compromised and exploited the entire Gazan infrastructure. They owned much of the real estate in the most populated areas. These were used for a sort of distributed armory. Weapons caches were scattered all throughout the cities. In addition the apartments were gifts bestowed on the families of their martyrs. And. The elevated vantage points are used for spotters and as fixed reference points for targeting mortar fire.

The bombs are needed because of the manner which Hamas is conducting their war against Israel. The western civilian who is critical of Israel is clueless of the military necessity driving choices made on the battlefield. But that doesn't change the emotive plea. It hurts to see what's happening in Gaza. But it's necessary.

Hamas can absolutely return the hostages and begin the hard work of convincing the world they will no longer pursue Israel's extinction. The first step is acknowledge The State of Israel exists. The minute they do that, the second they do that, everything about this conflict changes.

One of the ways to tell that Hamas is a proxy, an avatar, for Palestine is they behave identically within the political arena. They employ all the same arguments and neither will acknowledge the existence of a State of Israel.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If it wasn't happening, would the outcome be worse?

Absolutely. Had Israel continued to fight during the war for independence holding out until the Arabs acknowledged the existence of The State of Israel how many lives would have been saved?

The next Oct. 7th would be 5000 victims. The one after that 7500. Do you know how many terrorist attacks are attempted against Israel daily? The last time I checked, on average, 5 terrorist attacks per day. The highest tally per month was 300 attempted attacks. That's 10 attacks per day. Hamas promised another Oct. 7th.

If Israel does not create safe borders for itself, their enemies will never stop trying to exterminate all of us. While I do not think body counts are a useful metric, sooner or later the number of innocents killed in Gaza would be surpassed by the innocent Israelis killed by their enemies.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I can understand why you might tell yourself this.

Are there reasons to tell myself the converse? If so, what are they? Here's my assertion restated for reference:

If Israel does not create safe borders for itself, their enemies will never stop trying to exterminate all of us. While I do not think body counts are a useful metric, sooner or later the number of innocents killed in Gaza would be surpassed by the innocent Israelis killed by their enemies.

The qualifier above is bold and blue. I respectfully request that this qualifier is not omitted. It's extremely important to keep this in mind. Everything that is happening in Gaza rests on this fundemental necessity. Israel must have safe borders. No one is going to do it for us. We have to do it ourselves. No one is going to protect us. We have to protect ourselves.

Are there any reasons to believe that Israel's enemies will stop trying to exterminate us ... ever? Any reasons at all? Without safe borders, what is going to stop them?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Are there reasons to tell myself the converse? If so, what are they? Here's my assertion restated for reference:



The qualifier above is bold and blue. I respectfully request that this qualifier is not omitted. It's extremely important to keep this in mind. Everything that is happening in Gaza rests on this fundemental necessity. Israel must have safe borders. No one is going to do it for us. We have to do it ourselves. No one is going to protect us. We have to protect ourselves.

Are there any reasons to believe that Israel's enemies will stop trying to exterminate us ... ever? Any reasons at all? Without safe borders, what is going to stop them?

"If Israel does not create safe borders for itself..." Yeah, but that is not up to Israel alone. Now to work there must be a peace that works for both sides. That is not a given that it will happen nor is it a given that Israel can remain in existence as a state in the area.

But for peace to happen it will have to account for both sides.
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If Israel does not create safe borders for itself..." Yeah, but that is not up to Israel alone

Um. Is there any other country on the the entire planet which is not solely responsible for securing their borders?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Um. Is there any other country on the the entire planet which is not solely responsible for securing their borders?

Well, the problem is that they can't win all wars as such. Only some as far as I can tell. So the idea that they can as such secure their borders just as something they do and then they are secure, regardless of the rest of the world, is not something I believe in.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well, the problem is that they can't win all wars as such. Only some as far as I can tell. So the idea that they can as such secure their borders just as something they do and then they are secure, regardless of the rest of the world, is not something I believe in.

So you are holdng Israel to a different standard than any other country on the planet? Why is that?
 
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