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Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

The word "retrofit" was new to me, so I checked on the internet:

"Modifying our existing belief systems to accommodate new data points is known as “retrofitting,” and even the most rational among us do it all the time. "

The Hebraism for "retrofit" is "chukkim." That means the most important decrees in the entire Tanakh (say brit milah: ritual circumcision) have rationales that aren't known by Jews such that the meaning will have to be retrofitted after Messiah reveals the meaning of the decrees. Jews will literally have to wait until Messiah arrives in order for them to retrofit the meaning of their decrees (say brit milah: ritual circumcision), so that only then will they know that those decrees decreed the virgin birth of Messiah. Which, ironically, is the answer to the title of this thread.

Do you see the strange and paradoxical logic of the chukkim? Messiah will reveal the meaning of brit milah, ritual circumcision (hint: it's ritual emasculation implying that the first member of the new spiritual species, Messiah, can't be conceived the old-fashioned way, phallic-sex, with emphasis on the elimination of the "evil smelling drop of semen" (Avot 3:1.). Do you see the problem for Jews? They have to wait till Messiah arrives to know what ritual circumcision symbolizes when it symbolizes the primary way to know the one who will tell them what it means has arrived by means of virgin birth (a conception and birth circumspect for having had the father's organ really rather than ritually eliminated from the pregnancy).

Have any people ever been put under such great, demonic, duress? God bless Israel for how they have kept on keeping on. Their shackles are soon to be removed. They were in exile to the Egyptians for 400 years before their salvation. They've been in exile now for going on 2000 years. So mathematically speaking, their salvation now will be at least five times greater than the redemption from Egypt. Messiah will be at least five times greater than David (Jeremiah 23:5-8).



John
 
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Coder

Active Member
God bless Israel for how they have kept on keeping on.
One could easily make the case that they are the suffering servant (Isaiah). Jesus may also be one of the Jewish suffering servants but I believe that his story became twisted for another meaning and purpose that occludes the fact that he was a Jewish suffering servant.

I love, honor, and respect the Jewish people and Judaism (as mentioned, my monotheism is in line with theirs [e.g. no trinity belief]).
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I love, honor, and respect the Jewish people and Judaism . . ..

So glad to hear it! Imo, they generally speaking, genuinely deserve love, honor, and respect.

One could easily make the case that they are the suffering servant (Isaiah). Jesus may also be one of the Jewish suffering servants but I believe that his story became twisted for another meaning and purpose that occludes the fact that he was a Jewish suffering servant.

There can hardly be a doubt they're a national version of a singular suffering servant. Which segues into the title of this thread and the message you responded to that addressed the nature of the chukkim. In that message I stated the paradox related to the chukkim, vis-à-vis, the Jewish people are given decrees whose rationale they're not given and won't be given until Messiah comes. The very foundation of the Jewish people is brit milah, ritual circumcision, and yet it happens to be one of the chukkim, one of the decrees, whose rationale isn't given to Israel until Messiah arrives.

The decree that's the foundation of the Jewish people (brit milah: ritual circumcision) is the way that a person can know Messiah has arrived. Nevertheless, the rationale for the chukkim are unknown to Israel until Messiah arrives. He alone will give the rationale to the chukkim. Which creates Israel's great dilemma and the chains that binds them to their current, almost 2000 year, exile, since they can't know Messiah has arrived until he tells them the rationale of the chukkim (brit milah, ritual circumcision specifically) such that they have no way to authenticate the arrival of Messiah since he gives the way to authenticate his arrival after the fact of his arrival. They can't know he's Messiah from the get go, since they're not privy to the meaning of the chukkim till he arrives, which means they can't, won't, accept him as Messiah, since they would have to do that before they could accept his rationales for the chukkim while one of the rationales for the chukkim (the rationale for brit milah) is the only way they can know he's indeed Messiah. Jews don't accept Jesus because it's impossible for them to accept Jesus according to the way their decrees have been established.



John
 
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GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
Good luck with that ─ it'd be serious fun if you could show it was correct.

I think it has been done already, you see God was so incensed with Yusef he sent him back to correct his mistakes.

And so a baby/alter-alter-alter ego was born in Arabia 600 years later.

Humans have been having much fun ever since...
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member
So glad to hear it! Imo, they generally speaking, genuinely deserve love, honor, and respect.



There can hardly be a doubt they're a national version of a singular suffering servant. Which segues into the title of this thread and the message you responded to that addressed the nature of the chukkim. In that message I stated the paradox related to the chukkim, vis-à-vis, the Jewish people are given decrees whose rationale they're not given and won't be given until Messiah comes. The very foundation of the Jewish people is brit milah, ritual circumcision, and yet it happens to be one of the chukkim, one of the decrees, whose rationale isn't given to Israel until Messiah arrives.

The decree that's the foundation of the Jewish people (brit milah: ritual circumcision) is the way that a person can know Messiah has arrived. Nevertheless, the rationale for the chukkim are unknown to Israel until Messiah arrives. He alone will give the rationale to the chukkim. Which creates Israel's great dilemma and the chains that binds them to their current, almost 2000 year, exile, since they can't know Messiah has arrived until he tells them the rationale of the chukkim (brit milah, ritual circumcision specifically) such that they have no way to authenticate the arrival of Messiah since he gives the way to authenticate his arrival after the fact of his arrival. They can't know he's Messiah from the get go, since they're not privy to the meaning of the chukkim till he arrives, which means they can't, won't, accept him as Messiah, since they would have to do that before they could accept his rationales for the chukkim while one of the rationales for the chukkim (the rationale for brit milah) is the only way they can know he's indeed Messiah. Jews don't accept Jesus because it's impossible for them to accept Jesus according to the way their decrees have been established.



John

Just to throw it out there John, if circumcision is as important as you say, then perhaps the Islamic faith is the ultimate reconciliation for mankind?

We know the Jews don't need Christ to be saved, according to the Catholic church anyway.

So, should a non-Jewish person who is still on the fence about Christ be seeking answers from an imam instead?
 

1213

Well-Known Member
If Jesus established God's kingdom on earth, why did Jesus ask us to pray for God's kingdom to come to earth?

Matthew 6:9-13 English Standard Version 2016 (ESV)
Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
Matthew 6:9-13 Share - Bible.com
I don't think it has come fully, if only few people have received it. If it has not come fully, it is reasonable to ask it to come.
If Jesus established God's kingdom on earth, why are Christians waiting for Jesus to return and establish the kingdom of God on earth?
I think that is a good question. Jesus told the kingdom is within the people. Christians should have it, if they are truly disciples of Jesus. But, as one may see, not all are really disciples of Jesus.

Being asked by the Pharisees when God’s Kingdom would come, he answered them, “God’s Kingdom doesn’t come with observa-tion; neither will they say, ‘Look, here!’ or, ‘Look, there!’ for be-hold, God’s Kingdom is within you.”
Luke 17:20-21

And, because the end has no come yet, we can see that the Gospel of the kingdom has not been preached in all world. All people don't yet know about it.

This Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:14
The prophecies that the Jews await to be fulfilled are messianic age prophecies so they are going to be fulfilled during the messianic age, so they have yet to be fulfilled. I believe that age began when Christ returned in the person of Baha'u'llah in the mid-19th century, and will last no less than 1000 years, so it has a long way to go.... ...since Jesus said that He was no more in the world and His work was finished here.
It seems to me that people don't have very clear idea about the prophesies. But, how can you say Jesus returned and also that Jesus doesn't return, because he finished his work already?

I believe Jesus returns as said in the Bible, and it will be very clear to every human on earth.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't think it has come fully, if only few people have received it. If it has not come fully, it is reasonable to ask it to come.
I don't believe God's kingdom on earth had come at all when Jesus said that.
I think that is a good question. Jesus told the kingdom is within the people. Christians should have it, if they are truly disciples of Jesus. But, as one may see, not all are really disciples of Jesus.
I can agree with that.
And, because the end has no come yet, we can see that the Gospel of the kingdom has not been preached in all world. All people don't yet know about it.
Christian Bible scholars agreed that the Gospel had been preached in all the world by the mid 19th century.
All people know about Jesus and Christianity.

The end does not mean the end of the world. It means the end of an old age, which marks the beginning of a new age.
This Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in the whole world for a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Matt. 24:14
That has already happened and the end of the age came in the mid 19th century.
It seems to me that people don't have very clear idea about the prophesies. But, how can you say Jesus returned and also that Jesus doesn't return, because he finished his work already?
The return of Christ was never about Jesus. It was only an assumption made by Christians that it was Jesus who would return.
The return of Christ is about another man who would bring the same Christ spirit, one like Jesus.

Christians believe that the following verses are about Jesus, but since Jesus was the Son of man, the following verses cannot be about the Jesus.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

I believe those verses are about Baha'u'llah who was one like Jesus, so Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of man.
I believe Jesus returns as said in the Bible, and it will be very clear to every human on earth.
The problem Christians have is that the Bible does not SAY that Jesus will return, not anywhere in the OT or the NT.

The Bible also does not say that when Christ returns it will be very clear to every human on earth. That is simply an assumption that was made, based upon an interpretation of certain verses. 'Every eye will see Him' does not mean that literally every eye will see Him. That would be logically impossible. It means that everyone will know about Him, but it does not say when that will happen after His coming.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Why Jews don't believe in Jesus
I love, honor, and respect the Jewish people and Judaism (as mentioned, my monotheism is in line with theirs [e.g. no trinity belief]).
So glad to hear it! Imo, they generally speaking, genuinely deserve love, honor, and respect.
Just to throw it out there John, if circumcision is as important as you say, then perhaps the Islamic faith is the ultimate reconciliation for mankind?
We know the Jews don't need Christ to be saved, according to the Catholic church anyway.
So, should a non-Jewish person who is still on the fence about Christ be seeking answers from an imam instead?
Is our friend @John D. Brey a Christian and or a Jew, please, right? @GoodAttention ,@Coder ?

Regards
 

GoodAttention

Well-Known Member

Lisa Sims

Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
6.. No Death and Resurrection: The Messiah should not die and resurrect.
Shalom,

Jesus did "die" (but does anybody really die?) but he did not resurrect in his physical body. We all resurrect from our physical bodies in our spirit bodies when we "pass" to "Spirit." This is what Jesus did.

He says in his Second Coming Messages Series From Spirit, that after he passed from flesh on the cross he entered the sealed tomb where his body was laid (his own biological father, Joseph's, alias Joseph of Arimathea's, new tomb), dematerialized his carnal body into the elements (producing the image on the Shroud of Turin) and after exiting the tomb pulled together a body of apparent flesh from the elements sometimes unrecognizable, as to Mary at the tomb and to Thomas and Cleopas on the road to Damascus and sometimes completely recognizable as to Thomas and Cleopas as he broke bread with them (and then vanished,) and then, the following day in the upper room with his disciples, when Thomas put his finger in the nail holes and his hand in his side.

He says no one can be raised after the silver cord is broken connecting our spirit bodies to our carnal bodies. The three people he is said to have raised were not dead but in the "sleep of death," a coma, and with his tremendous healing powers having been obtained through the transformative effect of G-d's Divine Nature having flowed into his soul over a lifetime of earnest prayer for it, he was able to completely restore the apparently dead to health.

He says there will be no general resurrection of the dead as Christians believe. Our spirit bodies are completely sufficient for life in the much greater Spirit World.

Also, his Kingdom was not to be a physical one as the Jews believe, but a spiritual one as per prophesies in the Tanakh:

Psalms 51:10-12 “Create in me a clean HEART, O G-d, and put a new and right SPIRIT within me. Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the JOY of your salvation, and sustain in me a WILLING SPIRIT"

Proverbs 8:17 “I LOVE those who LOVE me, and those who SEEK ME DILIGENTLY, will FIND me.”

Isaiah 60:1-6 “Arise, SHINE, for your LIGHT has come, and the GLORY of the Lord rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the Lord rises upon you and his GLORY appears over you.”

Isaiah 61:10 “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD; my soul shall exult in my G-d, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.”

Jeremiah 29:12-13: "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will SEEK Me and FIND Me when you SEARCH for Me with all your HEART"

Jeremiah 31:33-34 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put MY LAW within them, and I will write it on their HEARTS. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all KNOW ME, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27 “And I will give you a new HEART, and a new SPIRIT I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to OBEY MY RULES.”


The prophets of old found communion with G-d and have much to teach us, both about how to pray diligently, and in their prophecies foretelling the Re-birth and One-ness with G-d. He imparted many blessings to them. They did not however have the possibility of seeking and obtaining the Divine Nature (G-d's Love) until Jesus brought news of its re-bestowal (having been withdrawn following the refusal of the first parents) and how to receive it through prayer, and showed the effects of it in his own person.

Jesus was born without sin, not from any miraculous birth, but so that he would be on par with the first parents who were born without sin. Without the incumbrance of original sin, he had soul-longings for the Father from birth, and as he began to understand the re-birth prophecies, began to pray in earnest to receive the Divine Nature. He became fully transformed by it with the outpouring that came to him at his baptism by John, and at that point, became "the Christ," the anointed one of G-d. There are now millions of completely transformed people based with him in the Kingdom of G-d and they are all technically "Christs," but they are called Divine Angels. "Christ" can be considered synonymous with the Divine Nature, Love, Essence of G-d, as when people say "Christ lives in me," and not that Jesus, the person, lives in them for he does not, and nor does the Holy Spirit, which is an attribute of G-d which delivers G-d's Love into the souls of the truly penitent and those earnestly seeking One-ness with Him through prayer.

There was also no "ascension" into heaven on the Earth plane as Christians believe, but his ascension was his preaching tour through the spirit realms explaining the rebirth in G-d's Love to people in the hells through the 6th sphere of paradise and then opening the gates of the Celestial Kingdom for the "thousands" who had become fully transformed in the spirit world during the three years of his preaching on Earth, like Moses and Elijah.

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net

John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."

"G-d is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him”

"G-d is Love, and Love is something we can pray for”

"G-d is Love..."

Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...The time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024

1 John 3:9 “...Anyone having been born of G-d does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of G-d.


Shalom...
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Shalom,

Jesus did "die" (but does anybody really die?) but he did not resurrect in his physical body. We all resurrect from our physical bodies in our spirit bodies when we "pass" to "Spirit." This is what Jesus did.

He says in his Second Coming Messages Series From Spirit, that after he passed from flesh on the cross he entered the sealed tomb where his body was laid (his own biological father, Joseph's, alias Joseph of Arimathea's, new tomb), dematerialized his carnal body into the elements (producing the image on the Shroud of Turin) and after exiting the tomb pulled together a body of apparent flesh from the elements sometimes unrecognizable, as to Mary at the tomb and to Thomas and Cleopas on the road to Damascus and sometimes completely recognizable as to Thomas and Cleopas as he broke bread with them (and then vanished,) and then, the following day in the upper room with his disciples, when Thomas put his finger in the nail holes and his hand in his side.

He says no one can be raised after the silver cord is broken connecting our spirit bodies to our carnal bodies. The three people he is said to have raised were not dead but in the "sleep of death," a coma, and with his tremendous healing powers having been obtained through the transformative effect of G-d's Divine Nature having flowed into his soul over a lifetime of earnest prayer for it, he was able to completely restore the apparently dead to health.

He says there will be no general resurrection of the dead as Christians believe. Our spirit bodies are completely sufficient for life in the much greater Spirit World.

Also, his Kingdom was not to be a physical one as the Jews believe, but a spiritual one as per prophesies in the Tanakh:

Psalms 51:10-12 “Create in me a clean HEART, O G-d, and put a new and right SPIRIT within me. Do not cast me away from your presence, and do not take your holy spirit from me. Restore to me the JOY of your salvation, and sustain in me a WILLING SPIRIT"

Proverbs 8:17 “I LOVE those who LOVE me, and those who SEEK ME DILIGENTLY, will FIND me.”

Isaiah 60:1-6 “Arise, SHINE, for your LIGHT has come, and the GLORY of the Lord rises upon you. See, darkness covers the earth and thick darkness is over the peoples, but the Lord rises upon you and his GLORY appears over you.”

Isaiah 61:10 “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD; my soul shall exult in my G-d, for he has clothed me with the garments of salvation; he has covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decks himself like a priest with a beautiful headdress, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.”

Jeremiah 29:12-13: "Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. You will SEEK Me and FIND Me when you SEARCH for Me with all your HEART"

Jeremiah 31:33-34 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put MY LAW within them, and I will write it on their HEARTS. And I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all KNOW ME, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Ezekiel 36:26-27 “And I will give you a new HEART, and a new SPIRIT I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my Spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes and be careful to OBEY MY RULES.”


The prophets of old found communion with G-d and have much to teach us, both about how to pray diligently, and in their prophecies foretelling the Re-birth and One-ness with G-d. He imparted many blessings to them. They did not however have the possibility of seeking and obtaining the Divine Nature (G-d's Love) until Jesus brought news of its re-bestowal (having been withdrawn following the refusal of the first parents) and how to receive it through prayer, and showed the effects of it in his own person.

Jesus was born without sin, not from any miraculous birth, but so that he would be on par with the first parents who were born without sin. Without the incumbrance of original sin, he had soul-longings for the Father from birth, and as he began to understand the re-birth prophecies, began to pray in earnest to receive the Divine Nature. He became fully transformed by it with the outpouring that came to him at his baptism by John, and at that point, became "the Christ," the anointed one of G-d. There are now millions of completely transformed people based with him in the Kingdom of G-d and they are all technically "Christs," but they are called Divine Angels. "Christ" can be considered synonymous with the Divine Nature, Love, Essence of G-d, as when people say "Christ lives in me," and not that Jesus, the person, lives in them for he does not, and nor does the Holy Spirit, which is an attribute of G-d which delivers G-d's Love into the souls of the truly penitent and those earnestly seeking One-ness with Him through prayer.

There was also no "ascension" into heaven on the Earth plane as Christians believe, but his ascension was his preaching tour through the spirit realms explaining the rebirth in G-d's Love to people in the hells through the 6th sphere of paradise and then opening the gates of the Celestial Kingdom for the "thousands" who had become fully transformed in the spirit world during the three years of his preaching on Earth, like Moses and Elijah.

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net

John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."

"G-d is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him”

"G-d is Love, and Love is something we can pray for”

"G-d is Love..."

Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...The time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024

1 John 3:9 “...Anyone having been born of G-d does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of G-d.


Shalom...
Hi, I hope some Jew comments on your post.
 

Lisa Sims

Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
I don't believe God's kingdom on earth had come at all when Jesus said that.
Greetings,

At that time, the "Kingdom of God" had come only in his own person. In all but the King James, the quote is, Luke 17:20-21, "...And having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God is coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with careful observation, nor will they say, ‘Behold here,’ or ‘There.’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst..."

Jesus was building a spiritual Kingdom in the heavens and a brotherhood of man on Earth, not the earthly Kingdom of Judaism that was expected. The Kingdom on Earth can only be fulfilled when all of its inhabitants are in possession of the Divine Nature. At that time, no laws will be needed to control behavior and the atmosphere will be so "thick" with God's Love that the "lion will lay down with the lamb..."

Blessings...
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Jesus was born without sin, not from any miraculous birth, but so that he would be on par with the first parents who were born without sin. Without the incumbrance of original sin, he had soul-longings for the Father from birth, and as he began to understand the re-birth prophecies, began to pray in earnest to receive the Divine

Since everyone but Jesus is born with sin, it seems like a miraculous conception would be required for him to be born different than everyone else? If billions and billions of persons have been born with sin, and nary one, save Jesus, is conceived without sin, then just that mathematical oddity seems oddly miraculous.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
We do not believe G-d will assume a human form. Nowhere in Messianic prophecy is the Messiah G-d in human form or otherwise. Jews also do not believe anyone can assume responsibility for the sins of another. G-d also calls human sacrifice an abomination and condemns it in the strongest possible terms.

Technically speaking, God wouldn't have to assume a human form, and Messiah wouldn't have to redeem anything, if the first humans hadn't sinned.

Remember that if Adam had not sinned the whole concept of areas that are sanctified and areas that are not would not have existed. The whole earth would have been like גן עדן [the garden of Eden], and every place on earth would have enjoyed the status of sanctity. . . There similarly would not have been people specially selected to perform the service in the Sanctuary since the whole of mankind would have been a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. . . Man would not have been required to bring himself close to G'd by means of an animal sacrifice; he himself would have been the sacrifice . . ..​
Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz, Shney Luchot Habrit, p. 681.​

Why is man not the sacrifice? Because of the sin of Adam and Eve, phallic-sex, the conception of Cain. It's an abomination to sacrifice fallen man to God as though he could accept sinful flesh as recompense for sin:

Eve's sin was due to her being seduced by the serpent which had mated with her and introduced its pollutant into her body. . . Because of this, all the people born nowadays originate in what Rabbi Akavyah has called the טפה סרוחה, the smelly drop of semen. . . Ever since the sin, when Adam and Eve became aware that they were naked and became ashamed on that account, and the whole rite of circumcision became connected to עריה, nakedness and shame, observance of circumcision has become much more crucial.​
Shney Luchot HaBerit, Torah Shebikhtav, Sefer Vayikra, Torah Ohr, Vayikra 7; Vayeshev, Miketz, Vayigash, Torah Ohr, 76.​
It's not putting anything in the Shelah's mouth to say that circumcision becomes of the utmost importance after the serpent contaminates Eve. In this sense, the Shelah appears to be saying that circumcision undoes what was first done when the smelly drop of semen first comes.

Through Milah [circumcision] it would be possible to return to the level of Adam and Eve before the sin. In other words, mankind would again have direct access to the spiritual dimension.​
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Inner Space, p. 166.​

Since the "smelly drop of semen" comes through the organ Abraham bleeds, we don't appear to be reading too much into all this to imply circumcision symbolizes a return to a covenant and a time before semen comes to contaminated births.

Death, the literal dis-integration of the husk of the body, was the grim price exacted by meiotic sexuality. Complex development in protoctists and their animal and plant descendants led to the evolution of death as a kind of sexually transmitted disease.​
Lynn Margulis, Symbiotic Planet, p. 90.​

Pre-meiotic organisms didn't senescence and die. Death didn't indwell the physical body until the fleshly serpent (the flesh created in the image of the angel of death) opened the veil of Eve's temple and contaminated the seed of the woman with the poison (smelly drop of semen) come, so to say, from its jowls.

. . . if man on earth had not failed and as a result become garbed in the pollutants emitted by the serpent [semen], there would not have been such a thing as shame, negative aspects to the act of procreation. . . semen would have been an emission originating in the brain, and the person born as a result of such an emission would have come into the world with the same stature as Adam.​
Shney Luchot HaBerit, Torah Shebikhtav, Vaera, Torah Ohr, 39.​
Through Milah [circumcision] it would be possible to return to the level of Adam and Eve before the sin. In other words, mankind would again have direct access to the spiritual dimension.​
Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, Inner Space, p. 166.​

Everything depends on circumcision returning mankind to the status of Adam and Eve prior to the first act of meiotic sex where, i.e., meiotic sex, the sexually transmitted disease Judaism refers to as the "evil inclination" contaminates everyone born when the fleshly serpent enters the crevice of the woman to conceive a nest of vipers. Semen, and the serpent it rides in on, is, according to the holy Shelah (Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz) the source of the sin and death that didn't exist until Adam's semen rode Adam's serpent to Eve's temple where and when it entered the crevice in her earth and turned the holy place of her temple (the bedchamber of the temple) into a den of vipers fit to raise a lot of Cain throughout the pages of human history.

Cut and bleed the serpent (brit milah) . . . cut all the way to the bone of truth (eliminate, emasculate) . . . and if, despite that emasculating blood דם ברית, the seed of the woman still comes out of that crevice, with the veil of the temple still intact at birth, so that he opens the womb, is a "womb-opener" פטר רחם (Exodus 13:2), then he's fit to be sacrificed to God in order to redeem everyone whose patrilineage, whose lineage, stops, where the serpent entering Eve starts. This virgin-born messianic personage fit to be a sacrifice is clearly stillborn in the pages of the Tanakh, but he's still born in the pages of the Gospels and Apostolic writings.



John
 
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Lisa Sims

Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Since everyone but Jesus is born with sin, it seems like a miraculous conception would be required for him to be born different than everyone else? If billions and billions of persons have been born with sin, and nary one, save Jesus, is conceived without sin, then just that mathematical oddity seems oddly miraculous.
Thank you, John, for your comments.

It is miraculous...God is capable of assuring that Jesus, perfect in soul as we all are, could incarnate into the male fetus of Mary and Joseph, protected from the incumbrance of original sin, to put His Chosen Messiah on par with the first parents, knowing that he was going to have the same decision put to him that they did. He chose One-ness with God, and not independence, bringing the truth of light and life to humanity. This is probably easier for most people to understand than the virgin birth which is a pagan insert.

Isaiah and the Assyrian menace
Isaiah 7:14-16 "...Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son and will call his name `Immanuel’. …For before the lad knows how to reject the bad and choose the good, the land whose two kings are causing you terror will be deserted.”
"...These sentences were taken out of context and the Hebrew word “alma,” (a young woman) was given the meaning “virgin” by the Greek and Latin translators, so that the thought expressed was that of a virgin birth, so popular in ancient religions, And here I may cite the birth of Horus, among the Egyptians, or Buddha, in India. The early Christian editors, of course, were seeking something in the Old Testament to support their theories of a virgin birth for the Christ, to bring back to, and convert, their pagan compatriots. They succeeded, to be sure, but impartial scholars and many members of different churches are now agreed that this prophecy of Isaiah did not refer to me but to a child born during Isaiah’s time..." Jesus, 7/12/1960

Jesus: Born Without Sin
"...As to the subject of my being born without sin, this is a subject I know that has been confusing to many. The simple fact is that I was born of the Holy Spirit in the sense that God conferred upon me the privilege of exercising my free will unhampered by any tendencies to sin. And, thus, I was given the Adamic condition of free choice that was enjoyed by our first parents. In their case, however, they chose not to follow the Father’s Request that they seek His Love, whereas my choice was to accept this invitation.
If it were possible to receive this Love, as it was possible for our first parents, this brought about yet another opportunity for humankind to accept the Father’s Invitation. And, so, even as a small child, implanted within me was an inborn desire, if you will, to seek the Love of the Father. I, of course, had the free will to reject this invitation, as did the first parents. But, in my case, I embraced this opportunity. And, in so doing, the "New Heart" was born in humankind as exemplified in my person.
No special dispensation was conferred upon me, except in the sense that I was unhampered by any tendencies to sin. But, as you must know, the first parents also had a similar pristine condition of soul. But, in their case, their material desires overwhelmed their spiritual natures, and this led to sin and failure in obtaining the Love that was available to them for the asking. Jesus, 8/28/86


Blessings...

From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net

John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."

1 John 3:9 “...Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "...I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances..."
 
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Ehav4Ever

Well-Known Member
Hi, I hope some Jew comments on your post.
That isn't something that we Jews should comment on. What was posted isn't relevant to any Jews. Literally, the topic has been beat with a dead horse for about 1,700 years.

Just to summerize, we Jews have some really good reasons to not become Christian or beleive in the various versions of Jesus beleif. I think that is a good summary.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Jesus was building a spiritual Kingdom in the heavens and a brotherhood of man on Earth, not the earthly Kingdom of Judaism that was expected. The Kingdom on Earth can only be fulfilled when all of its inhabitants are in possession of the Divine Nature. At that time, no laws will be needed to control behavior and the atmosphere will be so "thick" with God's Love that the "lion will lay down with the lamb..."
Jesus was laying the foundation for the Kingdom of God with His teachings....

When the Kingdom of God comes to Earth there will be a New Race of Men.
Man's spiritual nature will prevail rather than his physical nature, as we see prevailing today.

New Race of Men

But the universality of the Message of Bahá’u’lláh and the forces of new life released by Him within the individual, have given birth to a new race of men who have acquired a new vision and the will to think independently and act with purpose.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 2, p. 252)

The study of the Writings clearly indicates that the purpose underlying the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is to create a new race of men whose thoughts and deeds will reflect and manifest in this world the most lofty attributes and divine virtues.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 2, p. 140)

With the establishment of the Most Great Peace and the spiritualization of the peoples of the world, man will become a noble being adorned with divine virtues and perfections. This is one of the fruits of the Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh, promised by Him. The nobility of man and his spiritual development will lead him in the future to such a position that no individual could enjoy eating his food or resting at home while knowing that there was one person somewhere in the world without food or shelter. It is Bahá’u’lláh’s mission to create such a new race of men.
(Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 3, p. 126)

 
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