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  1. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    I think @jimb articulates his arguments extremely well. I heard no "mumbling". Well, let's stop here and discuss "mumbling". I see where @jimb disagreed with you, but I don't see where he mumbled anything. Mumbling is defined as follows: speaking or spoken in a quiet and indistinct way...
  2. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Isaiah 44:24: "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone'". 1. Who is the Lord, our Reedemer, at Isaiah 44:24? 2. Who is the Lord, maker of...
  3. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Ehrman?? The "agnostic/atheist" who says he's not a Christian?:laughing: Ehrman is about as far removed from a prophet as one can achieve. It's like a 1st Century Christian going to the temple and asking for guidance on The Way from a Pharisee. Sure. you gave quotes but they were addressed and...
  4. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    No, that is something skeptics and Unitarians claim, not scripture. Think it through. If this verse tells us Jesus is not God because because there is only one God, the Father, then it is also telling us that the Father is not Lord, because we have only one Lord, Jesus Christ. Does this mean...
  5. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Hi @blü 2 ! If Jesus is doing his own thing, he is following himself, not God. But to save our Unitarian friends, someone needs to harmonize your verse above from a Unitarian perspective, because it harmonizes completely from a Trinitarian one. Unitarians, like Trinitarian, are believers in...
  6. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Yes, but the important thing to remember is that there is no "mirror" here. It is the Son of Man, and not a mirror that reflects. His dual nature as the Son of God allows him to do this. His ability to see the Father even though no man hath seen the Father shows us he is the Son of God and not...
  7. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Then Jesus is good, and Jesus tells us exactly what that means. Well, if it's not God's glory Jesus is reflecting, whose glory is he reflecting?? But we're not talking about Jesus looking at a reflection of himself in a mirror. HE is reflecting God's glory, so your analogy doesn't apply...
  8. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Correct No, you say that but Jesus doesn't say that at all. The truth is, we were fearfully and wonderfully made, and prior to the fall, creation was made "good". There are no flavors of good. No gradients, no scale, no degrees of good, just good. Good is a standard that originates from God...
  9. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Wow! We can agree on things @Trailblazer! :) He has the exact nature of the Father. If the Father is good, then Jesus is good, which means Jesus is God, since only God is good. I see no other conclusion then what scripture tells us: Jesus is God. Yes, he is preeminent (firstborn) over...
  10. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Probably because this was answered earlier. Jesus has a dual nature. He is fully man and fully God. As the Son of Man he worships God because all men properly worship God. There is no reason for man not to worship God. But Jesus eternally pre-existed as the Son of God prior to his incarnation...
  11. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Bonus questions: 1. You suggest "good" has differing standards that are set by the Father. When God created everything and pronounced it "good", was it really "good" in the "supreme sense" of His standards, or was His creation a bit off? Perhaps it was "good" but only in a worldly sense? 2. If...
  12. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Like you, I see no other harmony. When Jesus was called "Good Teacher" Jesus specifically pointed out to the ruler that only God is good. We can have many teachers, but if only God is our good teacher, what does that tell us about Jesus? "Good in the Supreme sense" ? So who is our good...
  13. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    They're there. I'll give you one in a moment because it has to do with what we were discussing. Once we remove the obfuscation Unitarians use to surround the text it's not ambiguous at all. 16 So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute him...
  14. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    I plainly stated "the "ME" IS Jesus. What part of my statement did you not understand? Honestly @Eli G, sometimes you appear so ready to be disagreeable that you disagree even when we agree. Yes, Jesus is making an inquiry and not a statement. The initial word "WHY" followed by a question...
  15. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Not at all. There are no "separate individuals" in the Triune God. There are different persons, but not "separate individuals" Yes because Jesus is God just as the Spirit and Father are God. Remember, Jesus can ONLY do what he sees the Father doing. If Jesus is NOT good, then either he saw...
  16. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    The certain "Ruler" was talking with Jesus, so the "ME" is Jesus. That is obvious. What is NOT obvious is the claim that Jesus is saying he is somehow, some way, to some degree "not good". Yet many unitarians throw this verse in as some sort of "proof text" that Jesus is NOT God! Don't get...
  17. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    I suppose we could make God less complicated. Amoebas are relatively uncomplicated, but then no amoebas is God. God is much more above us than we are above the amoeba. So if God is simple and uncomplicated, then it's probably not the Christian God. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts...
  18. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    When does justice demand that a person not be "good"? Justice does NOT "sometime" demand that a person not be good. Only God is good, remember? If justice demands that a person "not be good" then God cannot mete out justice, because He, by your definition, would "sometimes" have to be "not...
  19. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    I agree, but only if we buy into this "Jesus is not all that good" theology. Well, just to be clear, I believe the Scripture reads "No one is good but God alone". Not quite. It makes the Father only as good as Jesus is since both the Father and Jesus are in "perfect unity". So if Jesus is...
  20. Oeste

    Jesus is not God

    Once again you contradict yourself. Did you read Matthew 16:13-17? Let's take a look: 13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others...
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