What is the day of judgment per Quran?

[Link]

No. Because God does not and cannot say or do illogical things.

You really don't see a problem in that there is no set of words to convince of you of beliefs of Muslims concerning hell and paradise? That means no set of words can convey the idea to you. Do you think that's a limit on language or a problem with you? I think it's the latter. I think the Quran is clear on these concepts, but you've made it impossible for God to say certain things by the way you play with language.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You really don't see a problem in that there is no set of words to convince of you of beliefs of Muslims concerning hell and paradise? That means no set of words can convey the idea to you. Do you think that's a limit on language or a problem with you? I think it's the latter. I think the Quran is clear on these concepts, but you've made it impossible for God to say certain things by the way you play with language.

Let me first ask you this.
Do you consider the Ummah of Islam on the Right path? In you view, the Muslim leaders have been on the right path?

If you tell me yes, the Muslims for the most part are on the right path, then, I aks you, why do you ignore so many Hadithes that the Prophet and Imams said, the Muslims sects will all go to the Fire? How many Hadithes so far I quoted for you to show this?
Did not I quote so many Hadithes, that the Prophet said Ummah of Islam, will go astray just as the Jews and Christians did?

Did not God say, some of its verses are Mutishabihat? Why do think Hell and Heaven verses are not similitudes?
Did not Allah say, He can give any similitude that can be misleading?

You have a presumption that, the general understanding of Muslims regarding Resurrection, Hell and Heaven are correct. Why is it strange to you that, the Muslims misinterpreted the Quran?
Did not your Imams say, when Qaim comes, He will give correct interpretation of the Quran, and then the Muslims argue and fight with the Qaim?

 

[Bthoth]

Yes, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
The Bab was forerunner of Baha'u'llah.
The Bab was Mahdi, and Baha'u'llah Return of Christ.

Why do you think Judgement Day has not come? It has come.

The unveiling is incomplete.

The verses in Surrah of the believers is about the Time of the Qaim:

[(فإذا نفخ في الصور فلا أنساب بينهم يومئذ ولا يتسائلون)] (المؤمنون - 101). توريث الاخوة في الدين في عصر المهدي عليه السلام [1697 - (الامام الكاظم عليه السلام) " إن الله تبارك وتعالى خلق الارواح قبل الابدان بألفي عام، ثم خلق الابدان بعد ذلك، فما تعارف منها في السماء تعارف في الارض وما تناكر منها في السماء تناكر في الارض، فإذا قام القائم ورث الاخ في الدين، ولم يورث الاخ في الولادة، وذلك قول الله عزوجل في كتابه: قد أفلح المؤمنون.. فإذا نفخ في الصور فلا أنساب بينهم يومئذ ولا يتسائلون "]

معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

It is about, brotherhood in Islam. those Muslims who believe in the Qaim and those who do not, they will be separated as a result. So, even if they were two brothers, one believes and another disbelieves, their brotherhood relationship is cut off.

فإذا نفخ في الصور فلا أنساب بينهم يومئذ ولا
يتسائلون)] (المؤمنون - 101ث​

This is why, it says, when trumpet is blown, there won't be any relationship between them. Meaning, the New Revelation, separates those who believe and disbelieve, even if they are father and son.
Then, those who disbelieve, will be in Fire.

Beside this, there are many Hadithes that says, most Muslims will be in Fire, accept the Ones who aregathered.in a gathering.
Meaning those who are gathered in one common faith that is established by the Qaim. I had already posted these Hadithes before.

Prophet said:

"My ummah will divide into 73 sects, all of them will be in the Fire except for one, and that is the Jamā'ah.” ·

Qaim.............. a person before Madhi?
So before the unveiling, 'fire' (end events) a new leader, speaker is to show up? Interesting. First time, i heard of that approach.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The unveiling is incomplete.

Qaim.............. a person before Madhi?
So before the unveiling, 'fire' (end events) a new leader, speaker is to show up? Interesting. First time, i heard of that approach.

What about John the Baptist before Jesus?

 

[Bthoth]

What about John the Baptist before Jesus?

OK, but that did not fulfill the unveiling.

jesus was not mahdi.

 

[Link]

Let me first ask you this.
Do you consider the Ummah of Islam on the Right path? In you view, the Muslim leaders have been on the right path?

If you tell me yes, the Muslims for the most part are on the right path, then, I aks you, why do you ignore so many Hadithes that the Prophet and Imams said, the Muslims sects will all go to the Fire? How many Hadithes so far I quoted for you to show this?
Did not I quote so many Hadithes, that the Prophet said Ummah of Islam, will go astray just as the Jews and Christians did?

Did not God say, some of its verses are Mutishabihat? Why do think Hell and Heaven verses are not similitudes?
Did not Allah say, He can give any similitude that can be misleading?

You have a presumption that, the general understanding of Muslims regarding Resurrection, Hell and Heaven are correct. Why is it strange to you that, the Muslims misinterpreted the Quran?
Did not your Imams say, when Qaim comes, He will give correct interpretation of the Quran, and then the Muslims argue and fight with the Qaim?

Salam

It's sad you have made impossible for God to say certain things because to you it would be irrational.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

It's sad you have made impossible for God to say certain things because to you it would be irrational.

Salam,

In the same way, that the Quran says, "Stars", but it means Imams, likewise, when it says, Day of Resurrection, it means, a new guidance that spiritually resurrects mankind. Likewise when it says Fire, Garden, River, Huries, etc, they also mean other things as discussed. They dont mean literally Fire, Garden, Huries, etc, in the same way that, the Stars, does not literally mean stars in the verses you already know.

 

[Link]

Salam

I don't know how to help you though. I would study maybe linguistics and get use to context speaking it for itself.

You abuse language and make a Quran into deceptive speech. God is a liar per the definition of double meaning if your claims are correct.

Parables are fine, but not an excuse to make Quran into play ground of your imagination.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

I don't know how to help you though. I would study maybe linguistics and get use to context speaking it for itself.

You abuse language and make a Quran into deceptive speech. God is a liar per the definition of double meaning if your claims are correct.

Parables are fine, but not an excuse to make Quran into play ground of your imagination.

Salam, if you tell a Sunni Muslim, that, the "Stars" in some of the verses of Quran, means, "Shia Imams", they would accuse you of the same thing you are saying to me.
You need to have a fair answer to this question for yourself: if indeed, "Stars" mean "Shia Imams", why God said "Stars", and why He did not say "Shia Imams"?

But I quote Baha'u'llah about this:

"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."


"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. ....The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.”

- Bahaullah, Book of Iqan


I hope that helps.

 

[Link]

Salam

The context in Surah Hijr which opens the theme through out in Quran, it's obviously a spiritual metaphor. This is because what leads to it is take about doors to heavenly realm, if opened, how disbelievers would still deny while ascending. In that context, it says that God has made lanterns adornment in vision of onlookers.

The far fetch meaning would be physical stars, since that would be taking out of context.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The context in Surah Hijr which opens the theme through out in Quran, it's obviously a spiritual metaphor. This is because what leads to it is take about doors to heavenly realm, if opened, how disbelievers would still deny while ascending. In that context, it says that God has made lanterns adornment in vision of onlookers.

The far fetch meaning would be physical stars, since that would be taking out of context.

Salam, say this explanation to a Sunni Muslim, and see if they accept. They dont as you know, in the same way, that, if you say to a Christian that the Bible prophesied about Muhammad, they don't agree. If you say to a Jew that, Jesus is the Messiah, they dont agree.

You know why? Because prophecies are written in Symbolic language. This way, denyers can deny, and fail the test!

The Sunni can argue with you, saying these are the actual Stars in sky. He tells you, God speaks clearly, as Quran says. It means what it actually says.
Beside this, God could have actually said Imams in the Quran, instead of Stars, so, there would be no Disagreement between Muslims. Or God could have said in the Bible that, an Arab Prophet will come in Medinah, with a Book called Quran, He will split the Moon for you, and Resurrect the dead, so, you can make sure it is really Him. Why didn't He? Once you have a fair answer to this question, you would see why the Bahai view is consistent with all other Messengers and Imams.

 

[Link]

Salam

The Sunni professor I did tell this to, I didn't ask him if it he saw them as the family of Mohammad, but when I pointed the context, he did say this is talking about heaven and not normal sky, and the lanterns here is not physical.

To derive the family of Mohammad (s) is with him in that realm, takes more verses, but I would assume Sunnis might think other Prophets are those lights with him instead.

However physical stars is a case of not realizing the context.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

The Sunni professor I did tell this to, I didn't ask him if it he saw them as the family of Mohammad, but when I pointed the context, he did say this is talking about heaven and not normal sky, and the lanterns here is not physical.

To derive the family of Mohammad (s) is with him in that realm, takes more verses, but I would assume Sunnis might think other Prophets are those lights with him instead.

However physical stars is a case of not realizing the context.

The verse talks about stars in heaven. So, you mean, it means Imams in Heaven? What does heaven denote here?

 

[Link]

The verse talks about stars in heaven. So, you mean, it means Imams in Heaven? What does heaven denote here?

Just read Surah Hijr, it flows you know.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Just read Surah Hijr, it flows you know.

This

وَلَقَدۡ جَعَلۡنَا فِی ٱلسَّمَاۤءِ بُرُوجࣰا وَزَیَّنَّـٰهَا لِلنَّـٰظِرِینَ

"We have set in heaven constellations and decked them out fair to the beholders" 15:13

There are 12 constellations. It can be an allusion to the 12 Imams.

But the word سماء which literally means Sky, is a metaphor for "Religion of God".

In Religion of God (Islam) there are 12 Imams. Muhammad in this analogy is the Sun. The Moon is Fatima.

In the sky there are 12 stars, is a Figurative way, to say in the Religion, there are 12 Imams.



"He is the One Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days, then established Himself on the Throne. He knows whatever goes into the earth and whatever comes out of it, and whatever descends from the sky and whatever ascends into it. And He is with you wherever you are.2 For Allah is All-Seeing of what you do." 57:4

Why "the Heavens", in the verse above, cannot be allusion to the "Religions" who were created by God, during six days (6000 years), from Adam till Muhammad's Dispensation? And the earth, denotes, creation of humanity, through 6000 years?

 

[Link]

Salam

Let me quote the context:

Some doors open upon other doors in the Quran. Which open other doors.

Without making a post lengthy, if 33:6, 33:33, 4:54-59, 5:55, 42:23 + 25:57 and many other verses, are accepted for what they truly mean and in their proper place, aside from the dimension of social and political aspects of leadership of Ahlulbayt (a), there is a special spiritual mystic reality talked about in Quran.


The connection:


وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ | And should their aversion be hard on you, find, if you can, seek a tunnel into the ground, or a ladder into sky, that you may bring them a sign. Had Allah wished, He would have brought them together on guidance. So do not be one of the ignorant. | Al-An'aam : 35


What is the sign and why can't Mohammad (s) bring it to disbelievers, Surah Hijr expands:

وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ بَابًا مِنَ السَّمَاءِ فَظَلُّوا فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ | Were We to open for them a gate of the sky, so that they could go on ascending through it, | Al-Hijr : 14

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ | they would surely say, ‘Indeed our vision is intoxicated; indeed, we are a bewitched lot.’ | Al-Hijr : 15

While they would react to it, Quran then says:

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ | Certainly We have made strongholds in the sky and adorned them for the onlookers, | Al-Hijr : 16

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ | and We have guarded it from every outcast Satan, | Al-Hijr : 17

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ | except someone who may eavesdrop, whereat there pursues him a manifest flame. | Al-Hijr : 18

This means, spiritually seeing these stars is encouraged by the Quran.

وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَاءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَابِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَاهَا رُجُومًا لِلشَّيَاطِينِ ۖ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ السَّعِيرِ | We have certainly adorned the world’s heaven with lamps, and made them [the means of pelting] missiles against the devils, and We have prepared for them a punishment of the Blaze. | Al-Mulk : 5
أَفَسِحْرٌ هَٰذَا أَمْ أَنْتُمْ لَا تُبْصِرُونَ | Is this, then, [also] magic, or is it you who do not perceive? | At-Tur : 15
فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ | Nay I swear by the positions of the stars | Al-Waaqia : 75
وَإِنَّهُ لَقَسَمٌ لَوْ تَعْلَمُونَ عَظِيمٌ | And indeed it is should you know an oath that is great Al-Waaqia : 76
وَالسَّمَاءِ ذَاتِ الْبُرُوجِ |And by the heaven with its structures/houses/mansions| Al-Burooj : 1
وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَاءَ فَوَجَدْنَاهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَسًا شَدِيدًا وَشُهُبًا | Indeed we made for the heaven and found it full of mighty sentries and flames. | Al-Jinn : 8
وَأَنَّا كُنَّا نَقْعُدُ مِنْهَا مَقَاعِدَ لِلسَّمْعِ ۖ فَمَنْ يَسْتَمِعِ الْآنَ يَجِدْ لَهُ شِهَابًا رَصَدًا | We used to sit in its positions to eavesdrop, but anyone listening now finds a flame waiting for him. | Al-Jinn : 9

This shows heaven/sky was augmented with the coming of Mohammad (s). Although, there is always a family guiding and being such weapons against dark magic, the humble enough Jinn realized it’s never been this strong, and this is an overwhelming power, that if all Jinn united, they cannot defeat. At least this was realized by a great amount of them at that time although is true of all times, it became more obvious now.

The heavenly augmentation of this house and family, caused a portion of the Jinn to submit.

The heavenly family and household are surely to be used by believers to annul the dark magic from both Jinn and humans.

وَالْبَيْتِ الْمَعْمُورِ | and (by) the House/Family greatly frequented; | At-Tur : 4
وَالسَّقْفِ الْمَرْفُوعِ | and (by) the vault raised high, | At-Tur : 5
وَالْبَحْرِ الْمَسْجُورِ | and (by) the surging sea: | At-Tur : 6

It’s this house and family that ultimately prove better then anything else that there is no escape from God and the punishment of God is surely coming to the rebels to God and oppressors.

All Satanic forces can unite but:
إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ لَوَاقِعٌ | indeed your Lord’s punishment will surely befall. | At-Tur : 7
مَا لَهُ مِنْ دَافِعٍ | There is none who can avert it. | At-Tur : 8

As for the verse in Surah Al-Mulk, the word is plural form of the lamp found in the niche in singular form in the following verse:

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ | Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is a niche wherein is a lamp—the lamp is in a glass, the glass as it were a glittering star—lit from a blessed olive tree, neither eastern nor western, whose oil almost lights up, though fire should not touch it. Light upon light. Allah guides to His Light whomever He wishes. Allah draws parables for mankind, and Allah has knowledge of all things. | An-Noor : 35

 

[Link]

Salam

An easy verse is the second verse of Surah Waqiah.

لَيْسَ لِوَقْعَتِهَا كَاذِبَةٌ

Laysa means there is none. "la" means "towards"

"waqataha" "it's occurrence"

"kaathiba" means "denial/calling false/deeming a lie".

The Surah goes on to describe the event in detail. But the start of it is showing when it occurs, there is no denial towards it's occurrence.

Of course this verse totally does away with the Bahai concept of day of judgment, since many deny it occurring at it's occurrence.

The previous verse also is important, in that it shows this true of the time of the event. So it's not a comment that there is no lie regarding it.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

An easy verse is the second verse of Surah Waqiah.

لَيْسَ لِوَقْعَتِهَا كَاذِبَةٌ

Laysa means there is none. "la" means "towards"

"waqataha" "it's occurrence"

"kaathiba" means "denial/calling false/deeming a lie".

The Surah goes on to describe the event in detail. But the start of it is showing when it occurs, there is no denial towards it's occurrence.

Of course this verse totally does away with the Bahai concept of day of judgment, since many deny it occurring at it's occurrence.

The previous verse also is important, in that it shows this true of the time of the event. So it's not a comment that there is no lie regarding it.

Here is a translation by Skakir, and Pikthal


"There is no belying its coming to pass-"

"There is no denying that it will befall"

It does not say, "No one will deny it when it happend"




1. Can you find some Hadithes about this verse that tells us how to interpret it?

2. What benefit is there for people, believers or disbelievers, to know, that when it happend, they won't be able to deny it?
How would this information add any value as guidance to humanity?
Just give it a thought.

 

[Link]

Here is a translation by Skakir, and Pikthal


"There is no belying its coming to pass-"

"There is no denying that it will befall"

It does not say, "No one will deny it when it happend"




1. Can you find some Hadithes about this verse that tells us how to interpret it?

2. What benefit is there for people, believers or disbelievers, to know, that when it happend, they won't be able to deny it?
How would this information add any value as guidance to humanity?
Just give it a thought.

There is no need of hadiths here. It's clear dude. No denial it of happening will happen when it occurs.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is no need of hadiths here. It's clear dude. No denial of happening will happen when it occurs.

قل يا مَعشرَ العلماء ، اُنظروا ثمّ اذکُروا ما انزَله الرّحمن فی الفرقان : اِذا وَقَعَتِ الواقعةُ لَيسَ لِوقعتِها کاذبة ." بگو امروز واقعه مذکوره واقع شد و ساعت و اشراط آن مشهود ،" يومَ تُبلَی السَّرائر " امروز است و " يومَ تَمُرُّ الجبال " امروز ، صيحه مرتفع و ارض متحرّک و مهتزّ و نور از افق مکلّم طور مُشرق و لائح و صرير قلم از اعلی مقام عالم مرتفع . از حقّ بترسيد ، اوست منتقم حقيقی . اين است نبأ اعظم و امر عظيم ، مقامش را بفهميد و در آنچه ظاهر شده انصاف دهيد قد اشرَقَتِ الارضُ بنور ربّها و نوّرت البلاد بنور موجدها . جهد نمائيد تا وقت باقی و امر ظاهر خود را محروم منمائيد

مرجع كتب وآثار بهائی - آيات الهی جلد دوم٬ صفحه ٢-٣

reference.bahai.org

My provisional translation:

"Say, O assembly of scholars, look and then recall what the Merciful has revealed in the Furqan (the Quran): "When the Event occurs, there is no denial of its occurrence." Say: Today, the mentioned event has occurred, and the Hour and its signs are evident. "The day when secrets will be laid bare" is today, and "the day the mountains will pass" is today. The cry has been raised, and the earth is shaken and trembling, and the light is shining from the horizon of the speaking Mount (Sinai), and the sound of the pen from the highest place of the elevated world is heard. Fear God, for He is the true Avenger. This is the greatest news and the mighty matter; understand its station and be just in what has been manifested. The earth has indeed been illumined with the light of its Lord, and the lands have been illuminated with the light of their Creator. Strive while there is still time and the matter is apparent, so do not deprive yourselves."

Baha'u'llah